Posts: 273
Threads: 11
Joined: December 29, 2008
Reputation:
3
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 12:21 am
I think that even if there were evidence of existence of any god or gods, i probably wouldn't worship him or her or them. I don't think I would like them.
A good friend of mine and I got into a deep religious debate just the other day. He has been brought up as a christian and is pretty passionate about his religion. He told me he had proof of his gods existence.
I said, "What's that? The Bible?"
He smiled and said YES. Then he walked off before I could tell him the Bible was written over 2000 years ago, has been edited numerous times and is no way any sort of proof.
So, maybe some believers think they already have proof.
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 12:30 am
Great quotes. And I agree with you.
Posts: 2241
Threads: 94
Joined: December 4, 2008
Reputation:
24
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 9:40 am
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2008 at 9:42 am by Dotard.)
Ok then.
If a God appeared before the world, say as a giant head 10x larger than the moon floating in the sky, and announced "Hello World! I'm God, I created the universe and you." Or as an individual that actually stopped the sun, or parted an ocean and walked across or waved his hand causing all the animals to have speech or anything as grand as that, then it would not be a matter of 'belief' in this God, but a fact. Belief would be irrevelent.
This, of course, only after a through investigation to rule out a holographic projection on the clouds or any other such magic tricks .
Also I would have to interact with this being. Someone posting this God appearance in the clouds or a video of him parting an ocean on YouTube, or offering up a photo would not do it for me. If that does it for some folks then look at my avatar. That's a photo of me, God, creating the universe (prove that it is not) and proof of my divinity.
I want to be a first hand witness to any of these events and I want interaction. I want to be able to ask questions of this entity to rule out physical beings from another planet using an accepted earthly myth to further whatever their agenda may be. Or to rule out a slick magic trick.
It is then and only then would I accept as a fact the existance of a supernatural creator God.
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
---------------
...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
---------------
NO MA'AM
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 6:57 pm
I think its interesting that atheists generally seem to be very united on what would change their mind: big evidence.
I'm just wondering what would change the mind on the other side? The believers? Theist/Deist, etc. What would change their mind? Do they all agree too? And I know that there are believers out there that would never change their mind! That's fundamentalism for you.
Evf
Posts: 2241
Threads: 94
Joined: December 4, 2008
Reputation:
24
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 9:07 pm
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2008 at 9:08 pm by Dotard.)
I think if all that big evidence happened and this entity said "I am, by your definition, A God.
I can move about transdimentionally, I can and do exist outside of time and space and I can create worlds and universes.
And I am here to tell you that I am not the God of your holy books nor do these Gods exist."
Then maybe some theists would throw in the towel and actually want more information about life, the universe and everything from this being.
I'll bet most would holler "SATAN!!" then run and hide under a rock.
I used to tell a lot of religious jokes. Not any more, I'm a registered sects offender.
---------------
...the least christian thing a person can do is to become a christian. ~Chuck
---------------
NO MA'AM
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 9:16 pm
Yeah I can see that.
But as I am interested in what it would take atheists to believe in a God (and I have already given what it would take for me. And what I mean by 'God'. I mean a supernatural superintelligent creator).
I guess what I'm really interested in is what it would take a theist/deist to become atheist. And what it would take a more unsure agnostic to become an atheist. Whether de facto (like myself) or gnostic.
By change mind I mean more what would make a believer (be theist or deist) change to an unbeliever or a unbeliever change to a believer. And what it would take an agnostic (whether on the spectrum they are, however sure/unsure they are of the existence/nonexistence of 'God') - to go closer to atheism or closer to theism/deism. To go more from unsure to being a more sure believer/unbeliever, either way.
Evf
Posts: 273
Threads: 11
Joined: December 29, 2008
Reputation:
3
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 9:43 pm
well i used to be a believer, and now im an atheist. the only reason i was ever a believer was because that was how i was raised as a child
What changed my mind was research, science, knowledge, etc.
But what didn't change my mind was other people trying to convince me and teach me that there is no god. I was not influenced by any atheist or agnostic individual, partly because there aren't many around here. (America)
I taught myself, and I think that maybe that's how it would change other believers minds.
I think they need to take interest in atheism and do their own research.
Maybe thats because they are afraid of being proved wrong...
any opinions?
Posts: 4807
Threads: 291
Joined: October 29, 2008
Reputation:
35
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 9:55 pm
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2008 at 9:56 pm by leo-rcc.)
I don't think you can convince a theist. The only thing you can do is ask questions so they are forced to think about exactly what it is they believe in and why. Sometimes they see the flaws in their logic, but most of the times it all falls on deaf ears. Years and years of indoctrination is not easily swept aside, particularly if the vast majority of the population believe in the same delusion as the theist/deist does.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 10:26 pm
I think that basically you can try to convince a theist. And you might have some effect. The questions you ask and also the arguments you give might help convince them to become atheist. But they still have to be compelled by the arguments. And if they're not, they're not.
I think you can try, and you can have an effect, you can help - on some people at least - but if it won't convince them then it won't convince them. Its either extremely difficult or impossible to convince some people I believe. I agree with you - but I think that it is also possible for theists to be convinced. Some can be convinced.
I mean perhaps an example would be Converts Corner at RDF. Some people are convinced - of course if they'd not convinced their not convinced. But I think it seems that its possible for a theist to be swayed by arguments in one book, or by one person, enough to be convinced. I think you can go more than just asking questions but, yes - there are many people who just won't be convinced.
Posts: 4807
Threads: 291
Joined: October 29, 2008
Reputation:
35
RE: What would it take to change your mind?
December 30, 2008 at 10:55 pm
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2008 at 10:56 pm by leo-rcc.)
Arguments are completely lost on a theist. If the realization doesn't come from themselves no pile of evidence or arguments is going to persuade them. I am 100% sure that the only way they become non believers is when they had doubt in the first place and only through self reflection they realized they were deluding themselves. The evidence is that the started reading it in the first place. A theist is not going to do that unlessfor attempting to debunk it. Granted a book like TGD can help formulate an argument against a belief in a god when you struggle like CR perhaps, but a Daystar or a Psalm it would never convince no matter how well formulated.
Best regards,
Leo van Miert
Horsepower is how hard you hit the wall --Torque is how far you take the wall with you
|