Damned Catholics

[Minimalist]

Yeah, good point Thor. This god of theirs is something of a shmuck.

Numbers 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

And then....

1 Samuel 9:17
And when Samuel saw Saul, the LORD said unto him, Behold the man whom I spake to thee of! this same shall reign over my people.

but alas....

1 Samuel 15:10 Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11 “I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions.”

Why did not this allegedly all-knowing god know that Saul would fuck up before he appointed him?

And further...

In 1 Samuel 16 "god" says of "David"...

Then the LORD said, “Rise and anoint him; this is the one.”

Yeah...but he turned out to be a putz, too.

2 Samuel 12 7 Then Nathan said to David, “You are the man! This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you from the hand of Saul. 8 I gave your master’s house to you, and your master’s wives into your arms. I gave you all Israel and Judah. And if all this had been too little, I would have given you even more. 9 Why did you despise the word of the LORD by doing what is evil in his eyes? You struck down Uriah the Hittite with the sword and took his wife to be your own. You killed him with the sword of the Ammonites. 10 Now, therefore, the sword will never depart from your house, because you despised me and took the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be your own.’

Strike three for the supposedly all-knowing 'god' who always seems to pick people who fuck up.

Before you get your nuts twisted, d-q, whining about free will remember that this has nothing to do with free will. You claim your god knows all. Why then is he always surprised and disappointed and angry when the men he picks turn out to be fuck ups?

Your god has all the managerial skills of an assistant manager at Burger King.

[dqualk]

@Thor Yes God knows how my life will turn out before I am born.

What you are getting at is the problem of evil. I would begin a discussion about it with you but I feel that I could not adequately state it, or at least I cannot without a serious amount of work, so I am trying to avoid starting that discussion. Plus it would probably be helpful to read the bad as who have developed some interesting Theodicies. I suppose I could start a thread in the Christianity part labeled Christian theodicies... I may get around to it at some point. Or you could start one and maybe Ill comment on it to start a discussion.

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@ Min

A valiant effort Minimalist. I am now an atheist becasue of your novel new arguement that I have never heard before!!!!!

not really... lol

This is called analogy and anthropomorphism. God is expressed in temporal terms. Why? Because otherwise we would not understand anything about Him, as God is Divinely Simple and infinite, and therefore our little minds cannot contain His Divine Simplicity. We see God through our own faulty lens, and then we describe Him and His "actions" the best way we know how, which is always insufficiently.

If you do not buy it that is your business and I do not blame you, I'm not mad at you, and I do not think that you are stupid.

ahem... oh and if you noticed I said nothing about free will

[Thor]

@Thor Yes God knows how my life will turn out before I am born.

Gee, I thought life was supposed to be some sort of test. But, if what are saying is true, this deity already knows if you will pass or fail the test. So, in fact, there is no real test because your fate is already known! Then why would this deity allow someone to be born when he knows they will fail the test and be tossed into a firepit for all eternity?

What you are getting at is the problem of evil. I would begin a discussion about it with you but I feel that I could not adequately state it, or at least I cannot without a serious amount of work, so I am trying to avoid starting that discussion.

Evil? Where did I talk about evil? How is "evil" involved when a child is born with horrifying birth defects?

And if your brilliant, omniscient deity already knows what will happen, what was the point in allowing people to be born when this deity already knew he would drown them in a flood?

[Minimalist]

ahem... oh and if you noticed I said nothing about free will

You didn't dare.

Your god is a sorry sack of shit if he needs you to make excuses for him.

[dqualk]

Gee, I thought life was supposed to be some sort of test. But, if what are saying is true, this deity already knows if you will pass or fail the test. So, in fact, there is no real test because your fate is already known! Then why would this deity allow someone to be born when he knows they will fail the test and be tossed into a firepit for all eternity?

This is a mystery, but it would make sense that we would not be able to make sense of the things of God. So what seems impossible within temporality is apparently possible with God. So knowing all things, and granting free will are some how consistent with God. I do not mean to prove it, because I'm not sure you can, but I believe it.

Evil? Where did I talk about evil? How is "evil" involved when a child is born with horrifying birth defects?

And if your brilliant, omniscient deity already knows what will happen, what was the point in allowing people to be born when this deity already knew he would drown them in a flood?

Well you may call it the "problem of children born with defects" but in philosophy its typically simplified to the problem of evil.

That is a difficult thing to answer. I believe that God allows such things, so that certain other virtues may arise like courage, compassion, and unconditional love. This is sometimes called sould building.

Perhpas he lets them be born because the goodness of free will is so good that it overwhelms the badness of drowning, and apparently without some people drowning there could not have been a maximal amount of good. Typically Best possible of all worlds theories assume that at some point in the future something so great will occur that it will make all the bad seem likei t was worth it. So it would be like practicing football all the time, and it hurts and sucks, but you end up winning the super bowl so all that hard work was worth it. This is not a perfect analogy and will fail on many levels, its just meant to be a simple way of describing what, if is true, would be a most complex thing.

@min

My God does not need nor want for anything.

[Jaysyn]

Well you may call it the "problem of children born with defects" but in philosophy its typically simplified to the problem of evil.

That is a difficult thing to answer. I believe that God allows such things, so that certain other virtues may arise like courage, compassion, and unconditional love. This is sometimes called sould building.

A true apologist thru & thru. Sick, sick, sick.

[Thor]

This is a mystery, but it would make sense that we would not be able to make sense of the things of God.

You can't lose here, can you? If things made sense, you'd say, "Look! It makes PERFECT SENSE that god would do things this way!". But things DON'T make sense. So you say, "It makes sense that we can't make sense of it!"

Yeah, that makes sense!

So what seems impossible within temporality is apparently possible with God.

If you throw out all logic and reason, I suppose so.

So knowing all things, and granting free will are some how consistent with God.

What does "free will" have to do with a child being born with horrible birth defects?

I do not mean to prove it, because I'm not sure you can, but I believe it.

Yes, people believe all kinds of weird shit.

Well you may call it the "problem of children born with defects" but in philosophy its typically simplified to the problem of evil.

Absolute rubbish!

Where does "evil" come into play when a child is born blind, deaf, missing limbs or with Down Syndrome?

That is a difficult thing to answer. I believe that God allows such things, so that certain other virtues may arise like courage, compassion, and unconditional love. This is sometimes called sould building.

So let me get this straight.... You think this incredibly loving and compassionate deity allows children to be born with life altering conditions so that they can develop "courage", "compassion" or "unconditional love"? And what about babies that are born with such severe problems that they spend their entire lives unresponsive? How does someone with a condition like this ever develop any virtues whatsoever? And if this is how your deity helps develop virtues, he's an incredible prick. I'll pass on developing "courage" if it means I have my sight.

Perhpas he lets them be born because the goodness of free will is so good that it overwhelms the badness of drowning,

And all those tots that were drowned? They never had a chance to exercise "free will", did they?

and apparently without some people drowning there could not have been a maximal amount of good.

Oh, come on! You mean your deity, the most brilliant being in existence, couldn't think of a better way to "start over" than drowning children? If this is true, your deity is a moron!

Typically Best possible of all worlds theories assume that at some point in the future something so great will occur that it will make all the bad seem likei t was worth it.

So drowning swaths of children is justifiable because "at some point in the future something great will occur"? The mind just boggles....

So it would be like practicing football all the time, and it hurts and sucks, but you end up winning the super bowl so all that hard work was worth it. This is not a perfect analogy and will fail on many levels, its just meant to be a simple way of describing what, if is true, would be a most complex thing.

You're right.... your analogy fails on many levels. The simplest of which is that people voluntarily join a football team. I don't think any children VOLUNTEERED for drowning.

[dqualk]

So let me get this straight.... You think this incredibly loving and compassionate deity allows children to be born with life altering conditions so that they can develop "courage", "compassion" or "unconditional love"? And what about babies that are born with such severe problems that they spend their entire lives unresponsive? How does someone with a condition like this ever develop any virtues whatsoever? And if this is how your deity helps develop virtues, he's an incredible prick. I'll pass on developing "courage" if it means I have my sight.

It allows for others to have unconditional love on the other on their human dignity alone.

And all those tots that were drowned? They never had a chance to exercise "free will", did they?

free will means that are actions have real reprucussions. So when somone does something stupid it really affects other people, and often times it affects the innocents. In the case of free will and birth defects, God typically allows for the world to continue on in a contingent manner.

So drowning swaths of children is justifiable because "at some point in the future something great will occur"? The mind just boggles....

that and a being like God is the only kind of being that could justifiably take any life. But further God also knows the sunjunctive actions of each individual. So He would have known what each of those who drowned would have done had they not drowned, and we can assume that they would have been evil, or else God makes a way for them through some other means.

You're right.... your analogy fails on many levels. The simplest of which is that people voluntarily join a football team. I don't think any children VOLUNTEERED for drowning.

Children don't volunteer to eat their vegetables but a loving parent will make them anyway.

[Thor]

It allows for others to have unconditional love on the other on their human dignity alone.

Wow.... So this deity will allow a child to be born with some terrible birth defect so OTHER PEOPLE can have "unconditional love"? What an awful thing to do! And, again, what about someone who is born unresponsive and oblivious to what is going on around them? They can't express anything!

And all those tots that were drowned? They never had a chance to exercise "free will", did they?

free will means that are actions have real reprucussions. So when somone does something stupid it really affects other people, and often times it affects the innocents.

Wonderful. So this deity drowned children because of the actions of their parents? I'd say that's incredibly horrible and any being that would do such a thing is not worthy of worship.

In the case of free will and birth defects, God typically allows for the world to continue on in a contingent manner.

I don't even know what this is supposed to mean.

So drowning swaths of children is justifiable because "at some point in the future something great will occur"? The mind just boggles....

that and a being like God is the only kind of being that could justifiably take any life.

So your deity gets a pass on committing atrocities? How is killing a child by drowning ever justifiable?

But further God also knows the sunjunctive actions of each individual. So He would have known what each of those who drowned would have done had they not drowned, and we can assume that they would have been evil, or else God makes a way for them through some other means.

You have to be kidding! The only folks who survived the flood were the 8 people on the ark. You mean to tell me that EVERY ONE of the MILLIONS of children on the planet would have grown up to be evil? What utter crap! And if this is true, why did this deity allow Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot or Jeffrey Dahmer to grow up?

You're right.... your analogy fails on many levels. The simplest of which is that people voluntarily join a football team. I don't think any children VOLUNTEERED for drowning.

Children don't volunteer to eat their vegetables but a loving parent will make them anyway.

You're comparing making a child eat his vegetables with drowning a child?

Wow..... just WOW!

And please explain to me how anyone could be a "loving parent" and drown their children.

[Minimalist]

The sheer brass balls of these catholic fucks is hard to comprehend.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/01/2...3F20110124

(Reuters) - Italy's Catholic Church jumped into the fray surrounding Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi's sex scandals Monday, warning him that politicians who behave immorally hurt the country's image and pollute its future.

Cardinal Angelo Bagnasco said the political quagmire was sowing the seeds of an "anthropological disaster" where the young see easy money, moral compromise and selling oneself as the road to success instead of hard work and playing by the rules.

Which "rule" lets you butt-fuck children, your ass-holiness?