If God is a witness to all things...

[drfuzzy]

Nothing is proven with 'ifs'.

That is what you convince yourself, but if you go the route of "what if God exists", what would then prove his existence...what would morality be, what would love be, what would light be, what would his reality be relative to us and us to him, what would judgment be, what would be the nature of honor, etc....

Everything will become clear. You will see exactly what would prove God if he exists, does prove him.

It's really that simple.

---

 I feel such pity for you.

I don't think anyone who felt pity for a person would actually say those words.

Sure I do.  I pity all preachers of every religion.  Wasting the only life you'll ever have as a slavish, brain-dead servant to something that doesn't exist.  "What if" does not prove god exists.  Actual PROOF would prove god exists.  No-one has ever been able to provide that proof.  It does not exist in a book, a story, or some fevered con-man's fantasy -- all of that is only human imagination.  You can convince yourself into believing anything.  That's how all religion and most insanity starts.

[Mystic]

You can deceive yourself, and in a sense be convinced of something false.

But knowledge would be indistinguishable from false belief, if you can truly convince yourself of a false belief.

If you are really convinced, really truly convinced, it is due to proofs, and no one should belittle themselves due to doubters nor leave their certainty because people hate the truth the proofs point to, and reminders remind of.

Is there any proof anyone truly doesn't know God exists or that there is a path to him or that morality comes from him or that his witnessing defines us. They might forget and put it aside, but when they remember, they do remember.

It is another thing if people are honest to themselves.  Every group of ideology claim to be the honest objective people, but everyone must find the truth first then it's people.

[Brian37]

Now give me a big wet sloppy kiss and big hug.....

LOL. That made my day.

GREAT now as your friend, do yourself a favor. STOP beating yourself up,  stop buying the lie that you were born evil.

Yes I do bitch at you, but I bitch at everyone. There are very few people in my life I truly hate, you are not one of them. Your claims do drive me crazy, but so does CL and I like her too.

The great thing about getting old, is your body is free from all those raging hormones that screw with your brain. It is a great feeling when you get to the age where other people's bitching doesn't get to you.

Oh and I can do a great Arnold voice from The Terminator. And I can do a great Bush Sr. And I can also do a little girl's voice, and have had people turn around and look at for a girl that isn't there and they look puzzled "what the?'

It is ok to bitch, and it is ok to be silly and it is ok to be imperfect and it is ok to have fun. 

But, while I do take logic and debate seriously, I don't take life so seriously that I beat myself up. You shouldnt do that to yourself either.

[downbeatplumb]

Thank you for trying to help me Brian, you are proof people should primarily rely on God's help through his books and chosen ones coupled to manifest and explain the holy books.

god is not in the business of being an actual thing. god is an idea that is used to lead otherwise pleasant people away from reality.
You used to be nice and I could have a reasonable discussion with you, but you have recently become a full  blown something, not sure what, but you are one as hard as you can be.

[Brian37]

Nothing is proven with 'ifs'.

That is what you convince yourself, but if you go the route of "what if God exists", what would then prove his existence...what would morality be, what would love be, what would light be, what would his reality be relative to us and us to him, what would judgment be, what would be the nature of honor, etc....

Everything will become clear. You will see exactly what would prove God if he exists, does prove him.

It's really that simple.

---

 I feel such pity for you.

I don't think anyone who felt pity for a person would actually say those words.

I don't pity you, but I don't think you need any religion, just like I think Catholic Lady doesn't need the bible. 

I say we all barbecue kittens and record a professional sports game without their permission.

OH, and lots of Bugs Bunny and Three Stooges. 

HEY MO........ 

Wabbit season, duck season, wabbit season, duck season........

Oh, and it is ok if you like Jewish Comedian Mel Brooks, "It's good to be the king."

I will say this though, If Jews and Muslims don't start getting along, damn it, I am going to force BOTH OF YOU to open up a pork barbecue joint. DON'T MAKE ME DO IT!

Don't get me started on Catholics, I am a former Catholic. All that damned standing and kneeling, who needs to go to a gym with all that?

---

Mystic, there is a phrase used in Catholic mass you say to those around you, "Let us offer each other a sign of peace", then you'd turn to the person next to you, in front of you or behind you and say hi and shake their hand and say "May peace be with you, and they'd say, and also with you."

Well after the first Star Wars came out, I wanted to say, "May the force be with you". I was too young back then, would have gotten bitch slapped or kicked out if I had done that, but that was the parody I thought of back then.

POINT IS MYSTIC, it is OK to be silly!

[LadyForCamus]

Thank you for trying to help me Brian, you are proof people should primarily rely on God's help through his books and chosen ones coupled to manifest and explain the holy books.

god is not in the business of being an actual thing. god is an idea that is used to lead otherwise pleasant people away from reality.
You used to be nice and I could have a reasonable discussion with you, but you have recently become a full  blown something, not sure what, but you are one as hard as you can be.

I think the word you're looking for is, "blowhard".  😏

[Angrboda]

If God was the witness, we would value things believing they are defined and have judgment.

If God was not the witness, we would not believe that about anyone, though we may deceive ourselves about it.

And how exactly do you know this?

[WinterHold]

Why do you take something so simple; and mutate it to make a big thing out of it? God's witnessing on everything is a fact in Islam; and an attribute of the superiority of God in the same religion.

I won't believe in the 12 Imams because of the OP. And no; it doesn't even reach the level of a seed. You think your topics are Vendetta's dominoes ??

From my perspective as a Muslim; God created everything, and he was a "witness" on its creation.
He sees all; knows all; witness on every action we do. Because he created everything. 

End of story. What is the OP about again?

[Brian37]

Why do you take something so simple; and mutate it to make a big thing out of it? God's witnessing on everything is a fact in Islam; and an attribute of the superiority of God in the same religion.

I won't believe in the 12 Imams because of the OP. And no; it doesn't even reach the level of a seed. You think your topics are Vendetta's dominoes ??

From my perspective as a Muslim; God created everything, and he was a "witness" on its creation.
He sees all; knows all; witness on every action we do. Because he created everything. 

End of story. What is the OP about again?

MOMMY! Listen you guys, you're both fans of MO, we get that. Allah chocolate bar and Moseltoff cocktail and all the trimmings.

Meanwhile over here in Jesus land, we have Christians on the right, Christians on the left, using the same book to come to different conclusions. 

This outsider, me, the guy who doesn't buy any god claim, looks at Christians and Muslims and Jews knowing and accepting the age of the universe and knowing religion nor humans were around back then.

AND DAMN IT............ 

I don't want Mystic dead, I don't want you dead, I don't want Jews dead, I don't want Catholic Lady dead.

But I am screaming in my head to most of my fellow humans, " YES ALL OF YOU ARE capable of doing good and being good".

This outsider,me, simply looks at humanity, and just want you all, all 7 billion humans, to consider there is no sky hero helping any of us, and if we want to help each other, each other is all we have.

When I debate Christians and Muslims and Jews, to me, it is like looking at my favorite NFL team the Redskins, and seeing the owner, and general manager and players all fight each other, and argue over how to win games and all I can think with my fellow humans, is " IT IS 2017 GUYS"

Why is any religion rooted in antiquity allowing that much division among my fellow humans when I know we are far more capable of good things, then arguing over antiquity?

I am not telling MK, or ATLASS or Catholic Lady or any religion to go away, I just want my fellow humans to consider that our morality was never handed down to us, and has always been in our genes.

Now excuse me while I go barbecue a kitten.

[WinterHold]

MOMMY! Listen you guys, you're both fans of MO, we get that. Allah chocolate bar and Moseltoff cocktail and all the trimmings.

Meanwhile over here in Jesus land, we have Christians on the right, Christians on the left, using the same book to come to different conclusions. 

This outsider, me, the guy who doesn't buy any god claim, looks at Christians and Muslims and Jews knowing and accepting the age of the universe and knowing religion nor humans were around back then.

AND DAMN IT............ 

I don't want Mystic dead, I don't want you dead, I don't want Jew dead, I don't want Catholic Lady dead.

But I am screaming in my head to most of my fellow humans, " YES ALL OF YOU ARE capable of doing good and being good".

This outsider,me, simply looks at humanity, and just want you all, all 7 billion humans, to consider there is no sky hero helping any of us, and if we want to help each other, each other is all we have.

When I debate Christians and Muslims and Jews, to me, it is like looking at my favorite NFL team the Redskins, and seeing the owner, and general manager and players all fight each other, and argue over how to win games and all I can think with my fellow humans, is " IT IS 2017 GUYS"

Why is any religion rooted in antiquity allowing that much division among my fellow humans when I know we are far more capable of good things, then arguing over antiquity?

I am not telling MK, or ATLASS or Catholic Lady or any religion to go away, I just want my fellow humans to consider that our morality was never handed down to us, and has always been in our genes.

Now excuse me while I go barbecue a kitten.

I always said that in my faith; in the book I believe in; difference in peoples' mentality is natural; it's God who willed for that; not me:

Sura 11, The Quran:
(118) And if your Lord had willed, He would certainly have made mankind a single nation. Yet they shall continue to differ.
(119) except those on whom your Lord has mercy and that is why He created them and the word of your Lord has been fulfilled: ‘I will surely fill hell with jinn and humans, all together!’

I'm not quoting this to convert you. I'm quoting this to tell you about the difference in mentality and belief that I have, and think is the whole purpose behind this religion.

We will always differ; no matter what. It's not up to me to decide; but it's up to me to try to save my own soul from hell.
Speeches about "the kingdom of God" or "The coming of the Mesiah/Mehdi", are all dreams of weird people, used a lot to control societies. That is what I'm trying to tell to you and every person reading me writing here: don't be a Muslim if you don't want to. But please admit that the Quran said something totally different than the propaganda of Shiites and Sunnies.

Did you try kitten cakes? just like crab cakes but the main component is cat flesh.