For Christians (or anyone else) who deny Darwinian evolution.

[Cod]

That sentence makes no sense. Logic is logic not philosophy, philosophy looks at logic and tries to make sense of it, logically speaking philosophy has no logical grounding philosophically.

Except logic is one of the main branches of philosophy. So...everything you said is complete nonsense.

Ahhhh, But Steve you forget one thing.. I am the almighty Cod and whatever I say makes sense, even when it doesn't seem to.

You on the other hand are just internet Steve, fallible and definitely unworthy.

[Pat Mustard]

[Godscreated]

 There equal because non of them represent information nor data. The numbers and letters have nothing assigned to them to believe they are anything at all.

Way to go avoiding answering a question. Using the same argument DNA contains no information because G, T, A and C have nothing assigned to them. Yet we know for sure that you accept that DNA contains information because otherwise you wouldn't be describing how recessive genes lead to a white spot in rottweilers. So we can see that you are deliberately being intellectually dishonest here.

No I'm not, that bunch of numbers and letters meant nothing until they are assigned a value.

OK, let's say that the strings above describe a system of 30 or 40 mechanisms that interact with each other. Each letter corresponds to the type of mechanism. The order in which the mechanisms appear is also important and affects how the system works.

If I want to give you the simplest recipe for recreating the system without losing information about it then I would tell you:

System A is 40 mechanisms of type 0.
System B is 3 sequences of mechanisms where each sequence is '1234567890'
System C can only be described as a single sequence of 30 mechanisms of types  'ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234'

So I could encode this as:

System A: 40x0
System B: 3x1234567890
System C: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ1234

String A has more data (40 characters) but the least information is required to recreate it
String C has the most information but the same amount of characters (data) as String B.

Now imagine we mutated the type of one of the mechanisms of String A to get String D:

0000000000Z00000000000000000000000000000

The simplest way of describing this system without losing information is 10 mechanisms of type 0, 1 mechanism of type Z following by 29 mechanisms of type 0.

System D: 10x0, 1xZ, 29x0

See, new information has been added to the description of a system because of a mutation.

 that wouldn't happen in a natural situation, like you said you mutated it. in nature the mutation already exist in the DNA or the information becomes mutated for whatever reason. Either way the DNA has nothing new only corrupted info that was already there. Lab work doesn't count as a natural process and you know it. Even in the lab there has been no changing one kind into another.

GC

---

Seems you ignored the evolutionist who couldn't make things fit because of the information at hand.

Because these points you make are not worth responding to. It just adds noise to the discussion, which is what religionists want because it means that it looks like there is a real debate between creationists and scientists.

So you claim that there is one evolutionary scientist who has has trouble reconciling his faith with the science? So what? There are many thousands of scientists who don't have this problem.
It does not nullify the scientific literature because scientific papers that pass peer review and get published need to meet a certain standard. The results stand by themselves.

Complete honesty is not a requirement for those papers and creationist are not all scientist but there are many creationist who are very good scientist and have their papers turned down because they disagree so much with the main stream science that has many flaws. why people buy into these flaws is beyond me, unless they care more about being published than actual truth.

 Thank you for admitting you know nothing about the breeding of Rottweilers, they were brought back from a gene pool of 19 dogs and are now healthier and certainly happy dogs who serve the human race in beneficial ways, so just lay off the crap we are hurting dogs because you hate this particular Christian. I have several vets who have been impressed with the care we give our Rottweilers. 
Breeding dogs to a certain physical standard if for their benefit and in many ways I know you can't understand so i want even bother to confuse your mind with such necessary things as good posture in a dog helps it live a more productive and healthy life with far less pain in it's older age. Breeding dogs to a standard has nothing to do with their longevity. There are dogs that have been breed for looks alone and suffer a great deal and most of the responsible breeders do not like it, we can't stop it so it will go on. 

Hmm, serve the human race. A very christian sense of entitlement you have there.

Humans were using dogs for their benefit long before Christianity, some of the first were men from North Africa to the Middle East, they were used to help man acquire food. I guess you know have a problem with secular man also. Dogs that are used for what they were breed for are happier dogs because it satisfies those urges within them. Why do you think there are so many pet dogs that cause so many problems in homes, answer, they are left to be what they want to be instead of being trained to be obedient animals that can live in a social setting. I guess you have problems with seeing eye dogs and all the other dogs that man uses to help the disabled, get of your high horse and recognize that dogs are useful to man in many ways and with good purpose.

What you say about breeding healthy dogs would all sound very convincing were it not for the fact that you said that you're trying to breed out white patches. Why not keep the white patches if health and function are your only criteria? And why not breed those 19 original rottweilers with other breeds rather than keep the gene pool so small? My criticism stands and your responses reveal how you are two-faced about what you believe and do. It also further nullifies your point about the information not being lost because you can't breed out a recessive gene. A gene pool of 19 rottweilers means that you have very little variation to work with.

We have a set standard to go by, it was set long ago. The white spot comes from a herding dog that was used to develop the Rottweiler. The breeders found it an undesirable trait for whatever reason and didn't want it to be a part of the breed, simple really and it has nothing to do with breeding healthy dogs, it's just part of the breeding standard process. We will always breed for health in rottweilers because it is most important to us, we just want show them when they have a white spot because it's outside the standard. All breeds have standards of appearance. If we didn't the dogs would soon not resemble what they are and the health aspect would soon follow. Answer to my bold, because they would not be Rottweilers, they are a very special breed one that can do many different things and they are one of the oldest breed, we can trace them back to the Romans. the people who rescued the Rottweiler understood what a great breed it was and desired to preserve it at their own expense, I'm very thankful they did. You are showing your hatred for this Christian, you can't stand it because I know so much about breeding dogs and why it's done. Yes the gene pool was limited and that's why we are careful about which dogs we breed. It's sad you can't appreciate what good dog breeders and trainers do, you need to take off your blinders of hate for Christians and learn a thing or two about something other than the different ways you can come up with to criticize those and those things you dislike, but hey if that shell you live in suits you stay there, but please leave the rest of us out of your pitiful state. 


[/quote]

[The Grand Nudger]

Is there some reason that what happens in the lab...and yes we've seen speciation in the lab, can't happen in the field......where we've also seen speciation....?

That speciation can and does occur isn't an inference, it's an observation of a scientific fact. What the fuck is a "kind" anyway....lol? You're going to have to be a tad bit more specific.

[I_am_not_mafia]

[Minimalist]

Argument from personal incredulity, Steve.  Even you can do better.

I really don't think he can.

[Cyberman]

Way to go avoiding answering a question. Using the same argument DNA contains no information because G, T, A and C have nothing assigned to them. Yet we know for sure that you accept that DNA contains information because otherwise you wouldn't be describing how recessive genes lead to a white spot in rottweilers. So we can see that you are deliberately being intellectually dishonest here.

No I'm not, that bunch of numbers and letters meant nothing until they are assigned a value.

Hold on - by "that bunch of letters and numbers", are you referring to the G T A C bases of DNA? They do have a value, in exactly the same sense as H2O. They're shorthand for the nucleotide chemicals guanine, thymine, adenine and cytosine. They're not a code, or a language, or stuff made up by evilutionist scientists.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Complete honesty is not a requirement for those papers and creationist are not all scientist but there are many creationist who are very good scientist and have their papers turned down because they disagree so much with the main stream science that has many flaws. why people buy into these flaws is beyond me, unless they care more about being published than actual truth.

Ah right the usual conspiracy theory excuse of mainstream scientists suppressing the truth. This is is a hallmark excuse of pseudo-science.

Truth is that most genuine scientific papers get rejected even when the scientists doing the peer review agree with the results. This is because the standards a paper to be accepted are very high and there are many criteria which need to be met. The science needs to be falsifiable and reproducible, the language must be concise, all conclusions must be backed up by the evidence yet say no more than that, and there needs to be a proper literature review so all existing evidence for and against needs to be accounted for. The results also need to be significant enough with all alternative explanations accounted for. This is just not possible if you are a creationist.

But if you do have a deeply unpopular view and do meet these criteria then your paper will still most likely be accepted. I have seen plenty of such papers accepted. Nor do you have to be part of an established institution. Anyone can submit a paper and expect to be published if they meet the criteria I have laid out.

But it's easier for a creationist to say that mainstream science is suppressing the truth than to admit that they can't do genuine science. And people who do not understand science believe them because they it allows them to maintain their superstitious beliefs.

[RoadRunner79]

[Ravenshire]

So now you need to explain why lab work does not count. Saying "and you know it" does not count, sorry. What is it about a lab that means that the process is not equivalent?

From what I've been able to glean from the context of his denials, his disdain of controls in a lab environment and his absolute fucking refusal to clarify his stance, he seems to think controls are something placed on experiments in order for the scientists to get the results they want.

Of course, I'm still waiting for him to quit using my word choice as an excuse for dodging the question whether or not the color of a goat's coat can be modified by having them fuck in front of striped or spotted sticks so don't hold your breath waiting for a reasoned response from GC.