Student sits during pledge of allegiance; gets chair kicked out from beneath him

[Tiberius]

Knowing CL I don't think she'd be OK with any person, veteran or not, from assaulting someone for not standing up for the pledge. As I see it, she finds it disrespectful, but she understands that the person has a right to do it.

[rexbeccarox]

What if an indifferent person were to say, "well, yeah. I'm indifferent. Thanks military for fighting for my ability to be so. I truly couldn't care less about this take-a-knee shit. I'm just lazy"?

Is that disrespectful?

[Catholic_Lady]

Right, it is a pledge of allegiance to this country. But it kinda flies in the face of people who sacrifice/die FOR this country when someone can't even be bothered to stand up during a pledge of allegiance to it.

Why? There's a massive difference between pledging allegiance to a country and honoring people who sacrifice / die for the country. You can respect the people in the military for their sacrifices and protest the country for the way it is perceived as heading.

Since the pledge has nothing to do with the military and is entirely about the country itself, it makes sense that not standing for the pledge is an indication that the person is not OK with the way the country is heading. It says nothing about their attitude towards the military.

There is a dangerous blend of national identity with the military, and it makes no sense. You can be patriotic and be against the military. You can be pro-military but object to the state of the country.

Anyway, being a military wife, that's how I see it. People have the right to do what they want, but when someone doesn't stand up simply because they don't feel like it, it does hit me with a certain attitude of disrespect to those of us who are sacrificing.

I think you are suffering from a bias of some kind due to your military background. You associate the pledge, the national anthem, etc. with the military. I can see how refusing to stand for it would come across as disrespectful towards the military, the veterans, the soldiers who died. However, my point is there is no reason to even think that the pledge or national anthem is about the military, because they just aren't. Unless they are specifically used in the context of "and now we'll sing the national anthem in honor of our troops", I don't see how either is not simply about nationalism and the country.

You are correct that the pledge isn't about honoring those who serve. But as I have explained, when someone is sacrificing life and limb for their country and the people in it, and some punk kid can't even be bothered to stand up to honor their country for 2 minutes simply because he doesn't feel like it, it does kinda fly in the face of the former group. It does feel indirectly disrespectful. Because one person is sacrificing their very life to make this country what it is, meanwhile someone else is too lazy to even stand for a pledge to it.

And because it apparently needs to be said, NO, this does not mean I think people should be forced to stand. And NO, I don't think anyone should get bullied or assaulted or battered for not standing lol.

[Tiberius]

You are correct that the pledge isn't about honoring those who serve. But as I have explained, when someone is sacrificing life and limb for their country and the people in it, and some punk kid can't even be bothered to stand up to honor their country for 2 minutes simply because he doesn't feel like it, it does kinda fly in the face of the former group. It does feel indirectly disrespectful. Because one person is sacrificing their very life to make this country what it is, meanwhile someone else is too lazy to even stand for a pledge to it.

So is it the whole "can't be bothered" attitude that you really oppose more than anything? If this weren't "some punk kid" but instead was an honor student who was a student activist, was aware of various forms of injustice, and was refusing the stand for the pledge because they disagreed with the wording, specifically the "liberty and justice for all" part. Would you feel that this inaction is also disrespectful?

If you think it's still disrespectful, is it less disrespectful than the punk kid, or the same?

Further, what if the kid was from a military family, and intended to join the military after graduating?

Further again, what if the kid had the support of veterans in his/her family to refuse to stand?

[Catholic_Lady]

You are correct that the pledge isn't about honoring those who serve. But as I have explained, when someone is sacrificing life and limb for their country and the people in it, and some punk kid can't even be bothered to stand up to honor their country for 2 minutes simply because he doesn't feel like it, it does kinda fly in the face of the former group. It does feel indirectly disrespectful. Because one person is sacrificing their very life to make this country what it is, meanwhile someone else is too lazy to even stand for a pledge to it.

So is it the whole "can't be bothered" attitude that you really oppose more than anything? If this weren't "some punk kid" but instead was an honor student who was a student activist, was aware of various forms of injustice, and was refusing the stand for the pledge because they disagreed with the wording, specifically the "liberty and justice for all" part. Would you feel that this inaction is also disrespectful?

If you think it's still disrespectful, is it less disrespectful than the punk kid, or the same?

Further, what if the kid was from a military family, and intended to join the military after graduating?

Further again, what if the kid had the support of veterans in his/her family to refuse to stand?

It's really just the can't be bothered attitude. If it's a form of protest/disagreement or even a religious thing, I wouldn't take issue with it.

I can't imagine someone being too lazy to stand for the pledge but then wanting to join the military, but if someone did I'd find it disrespectful just the same. Even if they had their veteran family's support or w/e. Which would also be strange bc I can't imagine anyone supporting their kid being lazy about something.

[KevinM1]

I've always felt the pledge was stupid. I mean, think about it:

We're making (whether through actual rules or social coercion) children stand up and recite a pledge of allegiance, on a daily basis.

Why are children making pledges to a form of government?
Why must it be done daily (does it somehow wear off)?
Why are they doing it if it's not actually binding in anyway?

It's okay to actually think about traditions. How they're performed, what their social function actually is, what they actually mean beyond "Well, it's just what we do." Tradition for tradition's sake is vapid.

[Jackalope]

I'm a veteran. I can't be bothered to stand for the pledge, or any other coerced display of patriotism. Am I disrespectful to veterans?

[Brian37]

I assume you have no problem with Jehovah's Witnesses who don't participate in such exercises. Right?

Like i said, people have the right to stay seated, but that doesn't mean I won't find it disrespectful if their reason for doing so is simply because they can't be bothered, and isn't out of genuine protest for a particular cause. I have no idea what a JW's reason would be, since I don't know anything about them.

My dad served too. 

Humans unfortunately live in a world where humans group and fight and compete, yes we DO need a military. But you don't seem to want to face the lessons of patriot shaming and outing people who protest. It is a very dangerous road to vilify protest. The Nazis did that. Kim Jong Un FORCES his population to partake in nationalistic ritual. 

Forced ritual an patriot shaming are what the Nazis demanded.

You do not have to like someone sitting down, but it is still a dangerous tactic for sitting politicians at any level to vilify protest. 

What 45 is doing is DANGEROUS rhetoric. What he is doing is counter to the First Amendment and as a SITTING POLITICIAN dangerous to the values of a free society.

When you have school students acting out violently to other students over a VOLUNTARY ritual, you are spreading the BAD message of blind loyalty. Blind loyalty are the demands of despots and dictators. The very types of people your husband joined to fight against. 

Nobody said you had to like it, but if you want our country to remain free long term, it is rhetoric that our politicians should refrain from using. Political vilification by politicians destroy our concepts of an open society.

[Aegon]

Somebody has to actually outline why it matters at all whether people stand for the Anthem/Pledge or not. Suddenly soldiers died in vain because Johnny in Math class or some NFL player decided to sit? Get over yourself. You want to stand, you stand. Forcing somebody else to goes against American ideals.

[Chad32]

It's all about indoctrination. That's one reason why people take little kids to church, even though everyone knows they don't really understand what the preacher is talking about, and they almost never have the patience to sit on a bench in a tight suit for one or more hours.