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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 14, 2017 at 12:38 pm
(November 13, 2017 at 5:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (November 13, 2017 at 5:19 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: Nothing that comes out of the Quran, the Bible, or any other printed source in any language constitutes proof.
You are right. Hold your horses. You will see that God is very precise with what he says constitutes proof.
The only way I will accept proof as "he says" is if HE shows up and proves it. On international TV. In the presence of multiple teams of reputable scientists. And even then, I won't necessarily accept whatever this entity says as proof that it is worth "worship". In fact, any entity that demands worship is automatically unworthy to receive it.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 14, 2017 at 2:53 pm
(November 12, 2017 at 11:27 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: MK, could you make it either 4 or 6 parts. I have this thing for prime numbers and don't want 5 ruined.
For it it to be true it needs to be in 42 parts.
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 14, 2017 at 3:19 pm
I will provide proof that I am the most sexually attractive man in the world.
But first I must define what I consider proof.
I Consider proof to be:
A: What my wife says. She is very trust worthy and I have no reason to doubt her word.
B: I have a mirror, I mean I can see my sweet sweet self.
C: I used to have documented proof by a third party dating from before my wife met me confirming this, until my wife found it and burnt it with a certain amount of relish.
So there you are three proofs that I am indeed a sex god.
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 15, 2017 at 3:27 pm
God will show the signs.... but is not sufficient concerning your Lord.....
Verse 41:53
We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?
As for the ending sentence, it shows indeed regarding God, that he being a witness to all things is a sufficient sign. There are many signs and proofs, but this one has been picked out in Quran, because it is one of the more apparent reminders and proofs of God.
Everything is created in truth and through God's vision of what they truly are. As that is only the way possible for creation to exist, the reminder is a perfect proof of God and reminds of him.
Verse 90: 7 says "Does he think no one sees him?", and in the first Surah revealed it says in 96:14 "Does he not know God sees him?".
It becomes manifest that God already is manifest enough through creation, that his since creation manifests being defined by the vision and a witness, there is no doubt about his existence.
However Quran offers plenty of other reminders and proofs of God. We will look at some of those.
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 15, 2017 at 3:32 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2017 at 3:33 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"Something is watching you pee, you couldn't pee unless something was watching you, therefore allah".
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 15, 2017 at 3:48 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2017 at 3:48 pm by Mystic.)
Not only does the Quran claim that being a witness over all things is a proof of God, but it proves his oneness and uniqueness:
Then is He who is a maintainer of every soul, [knowing] what it has earned, [like any other]? But to Allah they have attributed partners. Say, "Name them. Or do you inform Him of that which He knows not upon the earth or of what is apparent of speech?" Rather, their [own] plan has been made attractive to those who disbelieve, and they have been averted from the way. And whomever Allah leaves astray - there will be for him no guide. ("13:33)
Indeed we can see that whatever we have earned is to be only judged by a perfect judge. The one who truly knows our inner secret as is - is the one who sees through absolute vision, and the absolute vision is the perfect judge and knowing one, the absolute beauty and goodness.
This was a similar theme as mentioned before but slightly different, and the moral argument also exists in Quran. We will look at verses to do with that.
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 15, 2017 at 3:57 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2017 at 3:58 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
So, god watches me pee -and- wipes my spirit ass for maintenance when I take a shit, and has been keeping a running tally on both.
He sees you he sees you he sees you he sees you...jesus christ! It's enough to drive a paranoic to murder.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 15, 2017 at 4:03 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2017 at 4:03 pm by Whateverist.)
(November 12, 2017 at 10:42 pm)chimp3 Wrote: Fuck the Koran and fuck Muhammed!
If you've already started menstruating you're probably not Muhammed's type. (Roy Moore's either.)
(November 12, 2017 at 11:27 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: MK, could you make it either 4 or 6 parts. I have this thing for prime numbers and don't want 5 ruined.
If so I hear HBO is interested.
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 15, 2017 at 4:05 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2017 at 4:05 pm by Mystic.)
(November 14, 2017 at 12:38 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: (November 13, 2017 at 5:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: You are right. Hold your horses. You will see that God is very precise with what he says constitutes proof.
The only way I will accept proof as "he says" is if HE shows up and proves it. On international TV. In the presence of multiple teams of reputable scientists. And even then, I won't necessarily accept whatever this entity says as proof that it is worth "worship". In fact, any entity that demands worship is automatically unworthy to receive it.
*smiles* Ok, you will never accept God no matter what the proof is unless it meets your conditions. I see.
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RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
November 15, 2017 at 4:06 pm
(This post was last modified: November 15, 2017 at 4:07 pm by Whateverist.)
(November 13, 2017 at 4:52 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote: (November 13, 2017 at 4:41 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Intro
If someone claimed to be a Prophet in this age, people would be right to demand a decisive proof. This is very natural, and I would expect a book from God to understand how key the issue is to humans.
The issue of proof to not be repeated in a holy book, is a serious indication, that the holy book is not from God, as God would be concerned with clarifying the issue of proof.
We will see this a repeated theme that not is only mentioned often, but indirectly referred to, and has integrate the subject with the entire Quran, and summarized the whole book in one phrase and presented the proof and it's philosophical outlook all in one phrase with an eloquent elaboration.
The appearance of the objection in 2nd Chapter.
Verse 118:2
Those who do not know say why does not God talk to us or a proof/sign come to us: in the same manner those (who did not know) say before them, their hearts are similar (to one another). We have shown the proofs/signs to a people who attain certainty/become sure/are sure.
This is it's first appearance which may have the impression that God doesn't want us demanding proofs, but this is not what it is saying. Those who do not know naturally will ask these questions, and they are natural, but in response it says indeed God has shown signs to a people who attain certainty. That is people who proofs avail, are shown these very proof that they are asking, for it to come to them.
And both parties admit this in a sense. That is those demanding a proof from God are saying "God if he wishes to guide us, would show us the signs" and it is saying this is true, he would show signs, but who would they truly appear to and come to? To people who become certain.
And this admitted by both sides, because, a sign/proof should make you certain that is the whole point of them. And it does not make sense that God would not show signs to a people who become certain and accept them.
But implied is that, some people demanding proofs will not accept proofs. And this the other side of the issue which Quran will elaborate on.
The question is what is proof? Do we simply define these by narrow definition or is the discovery of exactly how this would be, something we should not be hasty with and listen closely.
Now is the Quran done, is this the only response. No, if God revealed the book, then he certainly must address this issue further as the whole book purpose is to provide clear proofs. If it doesn't take this issue seriously, it would be right to assume the book and it's author is not least concerned with the issue.
In fact the elaboration of this subject in this Surah is intense, and we will go back to the issue of proof to it, later. What I wanted to show is the very instance you would really come across that Quran takes the demand of proof by people seriously and confirms they are right, that God would provide proofs which would be shown to those who attain certainty.
In other words first believe without proof, then continue believing without proof
no thanks
I think I see where (my bolded) I went wrong.
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