Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 28, 2024, 7:29 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
"Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
#31
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
In two verses we saw that God is ready to show the signs and proofs.   And not only that but reminded proofs of not only his existence but proofs of his oneness. The question arises, what makes us perceive these "truths", what makes us perceive we are created through the vision of a witness and perfect absolute judge, mainly that we are created through the truth of his judgement.

This is a good question.  Something humans do believe intrinsically is that wisdom and morality is guidance on how to act. We know it doesn't compel us or force us to act, but an essential question to humans is what is the nature of this guidance?

In this regard, Quran says "Say:Indeed the guidance of God is the guidance" (3:73) and elsewhere Moses is quoted to have said regarding God "The one who gave everything it's creation and then guides it (20:50).

In fact, moral argument is implied in this, but is not the sole argument being made with respect to the true religion, but a lot more is being said in context of the Surahs and Quran.

Another important verse is the "God is the light of the heavens and the earth" famous verse.

What is the nature of Guidance?

It's easy to say you believe in morality and goodness, but what is but guidance from God? And what sees the truth but love of the truth and sheer honesty. When we lie to ourselves, we see but falsehood.

We will see the details of how Quran defines morality and goodness in a clear decisive manner which not only proves God but proves the proper religion.
Reply
#32
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
Why should it matter how a bunch of primitives defined morality?  Is there any moral significance to not giving a shit?  None that I'm aware of.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#33
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
I can agree with your analysis to this point.
Continue; please.

Quote:Why not a proof/Sign/indication
Quote:Sura 14, The Quran:
( 9 ) Has there not reached you the news of those before you - the people of Noah and 'Aad and Thamud and those after them? No one knows them but Allah. Their messengers brought them clear proofs, but they returned their hands to their mouths and said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and indeed we are, about that to which you invite us, in disquieting doubt."

( 10 ) Their messengers said, "Can there be doubt about Allah, Creator of the heavens and earth? He invites you that He may forgive you of your sins, and He delays your death for a specified term." They said, "You are not but men like us who wish to avert us from what our fathers were worshipping. So bring us a clear authority."
Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
( 111 ) And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allah should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant.

( 112 ) And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.

Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Quote:But implied is that, some people demanding proofs will not accept proofs. And this the other side of the issue which Quran will elaborate on.

THIS. Exactly.
This is a good topic. Continue.
Reply
#34
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
The objection that others will not accept your 'proofs' does not abrogate you of your burden of having to provide said proof. Nor do you get to decide what acceptable 'proofs' would be. I am the one who decides what it would take to convince me of a thing; and implying that others reject your 'proofs' because they are not openminded enough is dishonest.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
Reply
#35
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 15, 2017 at 4:26 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: In two verses we saw that God is ready to show the signs and proofs.   And not only that but reminded proofs of not only his existence but proofs of his oneness. The question arises, what makes us perceive these "truths", what makes us perceive we are created through the vision of a witness and perfect absolute judge, mainly that we are created through the truth of his judgement.

This is a good question.  Something humans do believe intrinsically is that wisdom and morality is guidance on how to act. We know it doesn't compel us or force us to act, but an essential question to humans is what is the nature of this guidance?

In this regard, Quran says "Say:Indeed the guidance of God is the guidance" (3:73) and elsewhere Moses is quoted to have said regarding God "The one who gave everything it's creation and then guides it (20:50).

In fact, moral argument is implied in this, but is not the sole argument being made with respect to the true religion, but a lot more is being said in context of the Surahs and Quran.

Another important verse is the "God is the light of the heavens and the earth" famous verse.

What is the nature of Guidance?

It's easy to say you believe in morality and goodness, but what is but guidance from God? And what sees the truth but love of the truth and sheer honesty. When we lie to ourselves, we see but falsehood.

We will see the details of how Quran defines morality and goodness in a clear decisive manner which not only proves God but proves the proper religion.

MK, assertions are not evidence or proof.. so far you are only providing assertions.. you are asserting "allah" is a witness, but you haven't provided any evidence of such. You are asserting that our morality comes from allah, and here too you didn't provide any evidence to back it up. If you really believe in Allah and are not trolling, ask him to help you understand the difference between assertion and proof first before trying to make your case here.

(November 16, 2017 at 7:57 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Dodgy

So allah wants the preachers to continue humiliating themselves infront of skeptics as usual? That's really benevolent of him
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

Join me on atheistforums Slack Cool Shades (pester tibs via pm if you need invite) Tongue

Reply
#36
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
It's like talking to a brick wall. If we abandoned the thread, do you think he'd even notice?
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
Reply
#37
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
Not in the slightest. All he wants is a platform; an audience is merely a bonus.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
Reply
#38
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 16, 2017 at 7:57 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: I can agree with your analysis to this point.
Continue; please.

Quote:Why not a proof/Sign/indication
Quote:Sura 14, The Quran:
( 9 )   Has there not reached you the news of those before you - the people of Noah and 'Aad and Thamud and those after them? No one knows them but Allah. Their messengers brought them clear proofs, but they returned their hands to their mouths and said, "Indeed, we disbelieve in that with which you have been sent, and indeed we are, about that to which you invite us, in disquieting doubt."

( 10 )   Their messengers said, "Can there be doubt about Allah, Creator of the heavens and earth? He invites you that He may forgive you of your sins, and He delays your death for a specified term." They said, "You are not but men like us who wish to avert us from what our fathers were worshipping. So bring us a clear authority."
Quote:Sura 6, The Quran:
( 111 )   And even if We had sent down to them the angels [with the message] and the dead spoke to them [of it] and We gathered together every [created] thing in front of them, they would not believe unless Allah should will. But most of them, [of that], are ignorant.

( 112 )   And thus We have made for every prophet an enemy - devils from mankind and jinn, inspiring to one another decorative speech in delusion. But if your Lord had willed, they would not have done it, so leave them and that which they invent.

Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Quote:But implied is that,  some people demanding proofs will not accept proofs. And this the other side of the issue which Quran will elaborate on.

THIS. Exactly.
This is a good topic. Continue.

Doesn't prove anything. In fact it just makes it more ridiculous. For example, if I make up a religion on the spot, and write in my book: "People won't believe this" then when they end up not believing I can't claim I predicted the future or I'm right etc. Please...
Reply
#39
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 15, 2017 at 4:05 pm)MysticKnight Wrote:
(November 14, 2017 at 12:38 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: The only way I will accept proof as "he says" is if HE shows up and proves it.  On international TV.  In the presence of multiple teams of reputable scientists.  And even then, I won't necessarily accept whatever this entity says as proof that it is worth "worship".  In fact, any entity that demands worship is automatically unworthy to receive it.

*smiles* Ok, you will never accept God no matter what the proof is unless it meets your conditions. I see.

If a creature shows up and presents "godly" attributes - whatever that means - then I will certainly agree that such a creature does indeed exist.  The "worship" part - blind acceptance, obeisance, sheep-like obedience - - highly unlikely.  "Worship" is how con men get people to show up and pay them to lie.  "Worship" is the need for a higher-power parental figure to make your decisions for you and tell you what to do and how to think.  It is infantile.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
Reply
#40
RE: "Why not a proof/Sign/indication" - challenge and various responses to it in Quran.
(November 16, 2017 at 2:22 pm)Aoi Magi Wrote:
(November 16, 2017 at 7:57 am)AtlasS33 Wrote: Yes MK; You are correct; these verses also prove that even if the clear signs were shown; if God didn't will for the soul to believe; the person won't believe.
You are correct in your analysis.

Dodgy

So allah wants the preachers to continue humiliating themselves infront of skeptics as usual? That's really benevolent of him

No; I don't agree to many of the OPs other points; but on this topic he is spot on !
He actually based the belief he preach on the same verses I believe; so...spot on !

If angels showed, heaven came in front of our eyes, would a non-believer believe?
I don't think so. It's lack of faith in humanity. Actually; MK brought a verse about God showing the signs for humans, and God did; the recent mind blowing evolution in cosmos discovery is just an example of that; but still humans won't believe.

That's the point.
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Does the Quran support Theocracy? Leonardo17 16 624 Yesterday at 11:08 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  New Controversies around the Desecration of the Quran Leonardo17 100 8177 August 20, 2023 at 12:10 pm
Last Post: arewethereyet
  Quran and Hadiths annatar 34 20450 October 11, 2022 at 5:14 pm
Last Post: arewethereyet
  "Nas" is probably my favorite arabic word in the Quran Woah0 22 1211 August 22, 2022 at 3:19 pm
Last Post: Aegon
  [Quranic reflection]: The Big Bang theory in the Quran. WinterHold 62 4195 June 14, 2022 at 1:21 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  How I'd Reveal the Quran To Humanity ReptilianPeon 23 2825 May 11, 2022 at 9:22 pm
Last Post: Cavalry
  2-big bang theory in the Quran mo3taz3nbar 108 48611 April 3, 2022 at 12:09 pm
Last Post: Fake Messiah
  [Quranic Reflection]: Quran vs Hadith- why the Hadith is false WinterHold 176 11488 January 15, 2022 at 2:39 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  [Quranic Reflection]: On reading the Quran.. WinterHold 1 851 July 24, 2021 at 5:23 pm
Last Post: onlinebiker
  [Quranic Reflection]: moon absorbed by the sun in the Quran: far future. WinterHold 253 13819 December 18, 2020 at 9:25 pm
Last Post: polymath257



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)