Please describe your god's loyalty reward scheme.

[Brian37]

Seems like there are many things in Scripture that are indeterminate. Sometimes I think God is intentionally being unclear so people will puzzle over the Word and by doing so grow in wisdom.

Yep. As I often cite:

Prov 25
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Hodge's Systematic Theology notes that the world is full of data. Science is the practice of organizing the data in meaningful ways and examining relationships among the data. Similarly, the Bible is full of data. Theology is the practice of organizing the data in meaningful ways and examining relationships among the data.

Sorry, but if one has the greatest thing since sliced bread, why hide it and not share it?

Only a greedy narcissist or paranoid personality would keep good things from others. 

If your God allows all the fucking crap that goes on on this planet and claims his will and "mysterious ways" are a good thing, then the asshole should pony up with a lagit explanation. If he doesn't want to give us one, then fuck him. 

Now MIND YOU, no such critter exists. But if you stick by such horrible logic we have to object. No sane parent in their right mind would allow the things that God allows to happen to humans happen to their own kids. Point being the LOGIC is not there to defend such a claim.

FYI quoting a holy writing to prove a holy writing is what all religions do, and it is circular reasoning no matter which fan of whatever religion does it.

[Cod]

Define weird, I think you are not a lost cause, I'm here for a chat anytime. I wish you would stop backing up people like Alpha mole and Neo the plastic,
you seem like a reasonable person.

What do you mean by a lost cause? If they say something I agree, of course I'm going to "back it up" lol.

Like I said, I think you are a reasonable person, the more you talk to cod the less catholic you will become, give me a couple of weeks and you will be backing me up.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Normally I would have been asking how confession works in removing sin from a soul, what a soul is, how information gets recorded on a persistent storage medium, how the information is retrrieved and sent over the aether to a god who processes the information, where the energy supply comes from for this physical mechanism as yet undiscovered by Physics which has got the poit where it is trying to come up with a grand unified theory.

But I didn't.

This time I was asking the theists to explain what their beliefs were without asking them to back it up with science. I was going to let them even make shit up if they to wanted without being challenged.

What I was planning to do was what the whole of society does with any process which gets judged on results. That is, find ways to reach those targets more efficiently. This means cutting out redundancy and exploiting a resource more efficiently. It's the very nature of intelligence. Take the education system for example. Bring in targets for a certain amount of children to reach a certain level of ability by a certain age and it focuses the teacher to teach the exam rather than to teach wisdom.

You get this happening throughout society. People will scrutinise their pension plan and figure out if they should go for a fixed or variable rate mortgage to save money. Yet if they truly believe their religion and are basing many fundamental life choices on their belief, then why aren't they applying the same mental process to this that they apply to every other part of their life?

One possible option is that they don't truly believe in a god.  That may apply to the default theists I mentioned earlier who don't question anything. But religionists for example do truly believe it seems.

So this leaves the other option, that these beliefs only work if thy aren't questioned. Asking for specifics kills the magic it seems. And the only reason I can currently think that undefined religious beliefs are more important to retain than to exploit some system because there is a lot of personal investment in the religious belief. Asking too many questions means that the theist can't come up with the answers because they can't back up what they believe. It's like auto cognitive dissonance kicks in.

[Catholic_Lady]

What do you mean by a lost cause? If they say something I agree, of course I'm going to "back it up" lol.

Like I said, I think you are a reasonable person, the more you talk to cod the less catholic you will become, give me a couple of weeks and you will be backing me up.

Challenge accepted. 

PS - being theist doesn't make someone unreasonable, contrary to some claims around here that we're all mentally ill.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Wyrd is weird.

Maybe one day you will read your favorite ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish religious fairy tale.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...ersion=KJV

Revelation 20:13-15, Revelation 21:1 (KJV) ="13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."

[Succubus]

...there is nothing new to be learned about christianity, except the lengths believers will go to to convince themselves they are "right".

This guy's even more smug and condescending than me! Look, I know what I know but I am also painfully aware of how much I don't. You really have to wonder about someone who thinks there is nothing new to be learned. I feel like I could study Scripture my whole life and will still only have scratched the surface.

Well I for one would appreciate some enlightenment. Who wrote the Canon gospels?

[Little Rik]

Yep. As I often cite:

Prov 25
It is the glory of God to conceal a matter,
But the glory of kings is to search out a matter.

Hodge's Systematic Theology notes that the world is full of data. Science is the practice of organizing the data in meaningful ways and examining relationships among the data. Similarly, the Bible is full of data. Theology is the practice of organizing the data in meaningful ways and examining relationships among the data.

Sorry, but if one has the greatest thing since sliced bread, why hide it and not share it?

Only a greedy narcissist or paranoid personality would keep good things from others. 

If your God allows all the fucking crap that goes on on this planet and claims his will and "mysterious ways" are a good thing, then the asshole should pony up with a lagit explanation. If he doesn't want to give us one, then fuck him. 

Now MIND YOU, no such critter exists. But if you stick by such horrible logic we have to object. No sane parent in their right mind would allow the things that God allows to happen to humans happen to their own kids. Point being the LOGIC is not there to defend such a claim.

FYI quoting a holy writing to prove a holy writing is what all religions do, and it is circular reasoning no matter which fan of whatever religion does it.

You mean that you can control your grown up and independent kids by taking away their free will?  

Magician by the way?  

Gee, that is incredible Brian.  




(color mine)

[Edwardo Piet]

Yes but I don't think the atheists who take religious belief seriously are being sensible. I think the fact that no one ever (whether atheist or theist) takes mythology or the Flying Spaghetti Monster seriously illustrates that.

All Christians, for instance, are atheists with regards to all other conceptions of God. That just demonstrates how silly belief in God is. For them to think their own particular cartoon character is the real one but all the others are just cartoons. The same applies to other religions of course.

I don't believe in other religions or other gods, but I'd still be interested in talking to a Buddhist or a Hindu, etc, about their religious beliefs in genuine discussion. I think it would be interesting to hear their views. I certainly wouldn't ask them questions just so i could mock the answers they took time to give me, and be sarcastic and condecending towards them. But that's just me I guess.

Nor would I. But I would say things to make a point.

Seriously though, it would be dishonest if I pretended to take Christianity any more seriously than Zeus.

I also notice that you would take Buddhists seriously and genuinely be interested but if someone believed in Zeus which is considered mythology you would consider that different merely because it's less popular. But it's no less absurd. The religions of today are exactly like the mythology of tomorrow.

---

We can pray to Him. So, "talk to Him" in that sense. But obviously we don't hear back and can't have a back and forth conversation.  

I'm hardly surprised that you don't hear back.

I can't understand how theists can notice that God's presence is completely indistinguishable from his absence and yet they still believe.

I get the feeling you'd feel very empty without your belief in God and Heaven and souls and free will. I bet you'd feel very empty if you believed this is all there is.

Hell, I feel empty believing this is all there is but I couldn't believe in God even if I wanted to any more than I could believe in Zeus even if I wanted to. Even if I decided I wanted to be deluded (I'd probably make a lot more friends if I was Christian too, there's a lot of Christians in my local area and many people go to church. I may even get a girlfriend more easily if I were Christian) but even if I wanted to believe in Christianity I couldn't no matter how much I wanted to.

I don't want to, but even if I was feeling suicidal (again) without more meaning to my life . . . I still couldn't choose to believe in that nonsense. Even if my life depended on it.

So believers must be completely brainwashed.

[Aroura]

I have two questions related to the OP, without being condescending.

1. Do you, as a theist, believe that the afterlife is important? In other words, is the destination of eternal heaven or hell an imperative teaching?

2. (Multi -part question) Do you worry that everyone has different notions of how to get there? What I mean is, some people believe you must be baptized, some only that you must accept Jesus as your savior (thereby damning all decent people of other faiths), some by good works, grace, confessions, etc. What if you are one who thinks you must only accept Jesus, but it turns out that the Baptism groups is correct? This is just another pascals wager. You are as likely to be wrong about how you get into heaven as I am about there not being one. Doesn't that ever worry you?

[John V]

Would you say there is also an exception for people who have never heard of Christ? Like indigenous people, etc?

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." That doesn't say "except through the express knowledge of me." If it did, then the OT saints wouldn't be saved. So, one could argue that a person is saved if they respond to the amount of truth that God has given them.

However, peoples not exposed to Christianity generally invented their own false religions.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

And their own consciences bear witness against them:

Romans 2
12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

So, salvation among such peoples is probably possible, but rare.

---

I have two questions related to the OP, without being condescending.

1. Do you, as a theist, believe that the afterlife is important?  In other words, is the destination of eternal heaven or hell an imperative teaching?

Yes.

2.  (Multi -part question) Do you worry that everyone has different notions of how to get there? What I mean is, some people believe you must be baptized, some only that you must accept Jesus as your savior (thereby damning all decent people of other faiths), some by good works, grace, confessions, etc.  What if you are one who thinks you must only accept Jesus, but it turns out that the Baptism groups is correct? This is just another pascals wager.  You are as likely to be wrong about how you get into heaven as I am about there not being one.  Doesn't that ever worry you?

Nope. My church doesn't water baptize, so my children haven't been baptized. Doesn't worry me a bit. If they as adults decided to get baptized, that wouldn't bother me either. See my earlier post on things being in God's hands. God will save those whom he will save. The point isn't for us to find one precise, correct ritual.

---

Well I for one would appreciate some enlightenment.

Liar! Your intent is to mock.