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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 11:45 am
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 11:46 am by John V.)
(November 21, 2017 at 11:36 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Nobody gets strangled when you say "I don't know"
They could. People don't necessarily require absolute certainty in order to act.
Quote:so it is equally as good as "I absolutely know I should never strangle my daughter."
Also note that this implies you're absolutely sure that strangling the daughter is immoral.
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 11:57 am
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 11:58 am by The Grand Nudger.)
It's almost as if you were channeling prophetic ability in the OP. Theism seems to inculcate predictababilty to a fault when it comes to ethics and comparative norms.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 12:02 pm
(November 21, 2017 at 11:45 am)alpha male Wrote: (November 21, 2017 at 11:36 am)vulcanlogician Wrote: Nobody gets strangled when you say "I don't know"
They could. People don't necessarily require absolute certainty in order to act.
Quote:so it is equally as good as "I absolutely know I should never strangle my daughter."
Also note that this implies you're absolutely sure that strangling the daughter is immoral.
You said it right there in your reply. "People don't necessarily require absolute certainty in order to act." Nor do they need absolute certainty in order to arrive at conclusions (ie. rape is wrong, daughter strangling is wrong etc.). I'm not ABSOLUTELY certain that daughter strangling is wrong, but I'm PRETTY DAMN SURE it's wrong.
Reason is a pretty good ethical guide IMO. Scripture is not nearly as good for the reasons I outlined in the OP.
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 12:07 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 12:09 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
It's just such a general statement leveraging an emotionally charged proposition that it's good for grandstanding but probably not for beating someone over the head with.
It's impossible to rationally justify the statement that you should -never- strangle your daughter, but it's trivially easy to establish that in a great many, but not all cases, it would be a bad idea. This is why absolutism fails in rational ethics....all relevant circumstances would have to be absolutely the same for an absolute moral statement to hold. A single outlier or edge case discredits a moral absolute.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 12:22 pm
(November 21, 2017 at 12:02 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: You said it right there in your reply. "People don't necessarily require absolute certainty in order to act." Nor do they need absolute certainty in order to arrive at conclusions (ie. rape is wrong, daughter strangling is wrong etc.). I'm not ABSOLUTELY certain that daughter strangling is wrong, but I'm PRETTY DAMN SURE it's wrong.
Now you're admitting that you have absolutes (you're never going to change your mind on daughter strangling), but saying you're only PRETTY DAMN SURE rather than ABSOLUTELY in an attempt to maintain some pretense at humility.
Face it, you're as absolute on certain things as any theist. And you should be - there's nothing wrong with it.
Quote:Reason is a pretty good ethical guide IMO. Scripture is not nearly as good for the reasons I outlined in the OP.
In OP you didn't even consider the source of scriptural ethics. Either:
1. They're from an omniscient creator. Reason tells me such a being is in a better position to determine ethics than we are.
2. They're from men, and as such were probably arrived at through reason.
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 12:26 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 12:27 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 21, 2017 at 12:22 pm)alpha male Wrote: 1. They're from an omniscient creator. Reason tells me such a being is in a better position to determine ethics than we are. -and yet the product of command ethics does not seem to indicate a creature that -does- know ethics better than we do, let alone some underlying omniscience. Curious.
Quote:2. They're from men, and as such were probably arrived at through reason.
A complete non-sequitur. The quoted portion above is actually a great example of why this statement is less than credible.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 12:47 pm
(November 21, 2017 at 12:22 pm)alpha male Wrote: Now you're admitting that you have absolutes (you're never going to change your mind on daughter strangling), but saying you're only PRETTY DAMN SURE rather than ABSOLUTELY in an attempt to maintain some pretense at humility.
Believe it or not, I'm not saying "pretty damn sure" for your benefit. I have thought at length about ethics (ie. How can I know what is right and wrong?). I have very developed thoughts on the matter. Even with developed thinking my conclusions might still be wrong, but I am not delivering "off the cuff" responses to refute you. I do not make ethical statements that are grounded in absolutes. Period. I use REASON. I don't think you disagree with me. In order to truly disagree, you must understand my position. The first thing you need to realize when trying to understand my position is that I try my best to state my meaning clearly. I'm trying to get to the truth, not convince you to agree with me by any means necessary.
Dammit, man! I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer!
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 12:58 pm
(November 21, 2017 at 12:47 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Believe it or not, I'm not saying "pretty damn sure" for your benefit. I have thought at length about ethics (ie. How can I know what is right and wrong?). I have very developed thoughts on the matter. Even with developed thinking my conclusions might still be wrong, but I am not delivering "off the cuff" responses to refute you. I do not make ethical statements that are grounded in absolutes. Period. I use REASON.
Why can't reason result in an absolute?
Quote:I don't think you disagree with me. In order to truly disagree, you must understand my position. The first thing you need to realize when trying to understand my position is that I try my best to state my meaning clearly. I'm trying to get to the truth, not convince you to agree with me by any means necessary.
Dammit, man! I'm a philosopher, not a lawyer!
No offense, but when you compare I don't know to I'm certain I should strangle my daughter, you don't come across as having thought things through so deeply. That seemed pretty cheap.
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 1:04 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 1:07 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(November 21, 2017 at 12:58 pm)alpha male Wrote: Why can't reason result in an absolute? Are the relevant specifics of every moral situation absolutely the same? Can there be -no- moral situation in which the statement "you should never strangle your daughter" is untrue?
If there's even one circumstance in which you might entertain strangling your daughter (or, say, killing your son?) as a good or virtuous thing...then the statement cannot be absolutely true.
So you tell us, Alpha...is there -no- circumstance in which it would be virtuous to grab a knife and some rope..and haul your kid up a mountain, or nail him to a board?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: (LONG) "I Don't Know" as a Good Answer in Ethics
November 21, 2017 at 1:28 pm
(This post was last modified: November 21, 2017 at 1:32 pm by vulcanlogician.)
(November 21, 2017 at 12:58 pm)alpha male Wrote: No offense, but when you compare I don't know to I'm certain I should strangle my daughter, you don't come across as having thought things through so deeply. That seemed pretty cheap.
It is actually Nuran Halitogullari's father who failed to think of things so deeply. My whole point was to endorse "I don't know" as a good position to have (in the same way Dawkins doesn't know how life came from non-life, yet he still has his head on straight concerning biology).
Since I have introduced myself to you via a scathing indictment of scriptural literalism, it may not be clear to you that I have a deep respect for Christians and their beliefs. For example, Christians don't murder their children because they were raped. At the risk of you accusing me of absolutism again, I'd like to say that this is something I like about Christians. I also think that the Sermon on the Mount hits some ethical high notes, and (with a few edits here and there) might even be considered a pretty powerful ethical argument. Leo Tolstoy has some really cool things to say on the subject.
Anyway, with those pleasantries out of the way, let me ask you: Do you think it is possible that the bible gets ethics wrong in places?
(November 21, 2017 at 11:27 am)Khemikal Wrote: Having been (and still being) contemporaneous ethical theories the proponents of both have been offering criticism of the other and the end product is that folks in both camps seem to have realized that, unmodifed, neither of their ethical theories adequately expressed the truth they sought to systematically justify, leading to a sort of ethical syncretism by which any modern concept of either is peppered with the borrowed and normalized concepts of the other. Modesty over indulgence in pleasure seeking is a good example of that. The reason that epicureanism was such a compelling opposing theory to stoicism is that it incorporated what some might call the better parts of stoicism, but in a way that coherently advocated for the ends of goals of hedonism. In addition, it wasn't hamstrung by irrational ethical concepts like "natural law" or "natures plan"...present in zenos stoicism and in christian mythology. In epicurean hedonism..."natures plan" can be a bad thing, from an ethical point of view.
You have some interesting thoughts on the matter. I was letting them percolate as I was squabbling with the squirrel. So let me ask, do you see Epicurean hedonism (or hedonism in general) as an appealing theory?
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