Theists: What do you mean when you say that God is 'perfect'?

[chimp3]

If I was a god I would forbid and prevent my children from killing one another. I guess that makes me a better Daddy than your fake one in the sky. I am morally superior to your murderous sky daddy!

Which makes you a dictator and a puppet-master.
Why would you enforce morals in a place already designed and created as a test ground?

According to what I found in the Quran; Islam's holy book, the concept can't be clearer:

Sura 67, The Quran:
( 2 )   [He] who created death and life to test you [as to] which of you is best in deed - and He is the Exalted in Might, the Forgiving -

Wouldn't intervention be a breaking to the whole test concept?

Why should I respect what you say? Do you have anything unique to add ?

[WinterHold]

Which makes you a dictator and a puppet-master.
Why would you enforce morals in a place already designed and created as a test ground?

According to what I found in the Quran; Islam's holy book, the concept can't be clearer:


Wouldn't intervention be a breaking to the whole test concept?

Why should I respect what you say? Do you have anything unique to add ?

No reason at all. Listening is a choice, and in some situations a very crucial  skill.

[possibletarian]

Why would a perfect creator test his creation?
That implies degree of the unknown, when we test things it's an admittance of incomplete knowledge as to whether what we have made is up to the task. I can understand this being a human concept, but not the work of a perfect creator.

[WinterHold]

Why would a perfect creator test his creation?
That implies degree of the unknown, when we test things it's an admittance of incomplete knowledge as to whether what we have made is up to the task.

In order to be "perfect"; he must be perfect in terms of justice; too.
Compulsion is no way of perfection, the creations that have consciousness must decide themselves where they want to be; hell or heaven, without compulsion.

Hell is the justified final destination for anybody choosing the wrong answer.

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Why would a perfect creator test his creation?
That implies degree of the unknown, when we test things it's an admittance of incomplete knowledge as to whether what we have made is up to the task.  I can understand this being a human concept, but not the work of a perfect creator.

God knows the future of everything. But for the future to be justified; it must run and happen.
He won't be just if he compulsively enforced the track. He would be a puppet master then.

Which makes our own imaging of God quite lame. God looks to me as more of an eternal system, not devised by anyone and not like anything else. Not created and like anything we even saw or knew.

[possibletarian]

Why would a perfect creator test his creation?
That implies degree of the unknown, when we test things it's an admittance of incomplete knowledge as to whether what we have made is up to the task.

In order to be "perfect"; he must be perfect in terms of justice; too.
Compulsion is no way of perfection, the creations that have consciousness must decide themselves where they want to be; hell or heaven, without compulsion.

Hell is the justified final destination for anybody choosing the wrong answer.

---

Why would a perfect creator test his creation?
That implies degree of the unknown, when we test things it's an admittance of incomplete knowledge as to whether what we have made is up to the task.  I can understand this being a human concept, but not the work of a perfect creator.

God knows the future of everything. But for the future to be justified; it must run and happen.
He won't be just if he compulsively enforced the track. He would be a puppet master then.

Which makes our own imaging of God quite lame. God looks to me as more of an eternal system, not devised by anyone and not like anything else. Not created and like anything we even saw or knew.

Yes i agree our image of god is very lame, I assume god could create perfect beings, but choose for some reason not to for the sake of a 'perfect' justice. Makes no sense to me at all, how can you create being you know will not be perfect, then test them knowing they will fail when you could have made them to pass the test in the first pace ?

Why would creating perfect beings be coercive in any way ?

[WinterHold]

Yes i agree our image of god is very lame, I assume god could create perfect beings,  but choose for some reason not to for the sake of a 'perfect' justice. Makes no sense to me at all, how can you create being you know will not be perfect, then test them knowing they will fail when you could have made them to pass the test in the first pace ?

Why would creating perfect beings be coercive in any way ?

For he himself to be "perfect", he must fulfill certain attributes. In Islam, the Quran mentioned so many, justice, mercy, strength, ownership, creation...etc.
Creating perfect creations would break the attribute of "Uniqueness" that God has. He is the only perfect thing, breaking that unique attribute through making other perfect beings would just ruin the system. Leading to the Titans/Gods of Olympus scenario.

[downbeatplumb]

For who? the 1%ers who live in modern first world countries? not even them as a collective. As "pop morality" is divided even amoung us. Example Euro 'morality' has run away from American pop morality.

The point? How can you have a "STANDARD" if said standard is not "standard/universal or ever changing?

Standards change.

Exchange rates are a standard but fluctuate as do interest rates.

Everything changes.
For example, in the UK we used to execute criminals but our moral standards increased and we stopped doing that.
Some backwards countries are yet to follow suit but, given time we hope they will see how truly awful they are.

[The Grand Nudger]

If I was a god I would forbid and prevent my children from killing one another. I guess that makes me a better Daddy than your fake one in the sky. I am morally superior to your murderous sky daddy!

Which makes you a dictator and a puppet-master.

................................................................................................. Who knew that full prevention of murder was horrible tyrant shit? Djinn worshippers, that's who. Unfit parents worshipping an idol to unfit parenting, lol.

For he himself to be "perfect", he must fulfill certain attributes. In Islam, the Quran mentioned so many, justice, mercy, strength, ownership, creation...etc.
Creating perfect creations would break the attribute of "Uniqueness" that God has. He is the only perfect thing, breaking that unique attribute through making other perfect beings would just ruin the system. Leading to the Titans/Gods of Olympus scenario.

"Ruin the system" seems to be allah-speak for "god doesn't like the thought of having peers so he fucked us". That is, conveniently, one of the stories told regarding titans and olympians..............

[Edwardo Piet]

Why would a perfect creator test his creation?

Well, duh, a perfect God is perfect in every way. So he is the bestest at everything! Which also includes fucking about just for shits and giggles/poop and chuckles.

[Drich]

For who? the 1%ers who live in modern first world countries? not even them as a collective. As "pop morality" is divided even amoung us. Example Euro 'morality' has run away from American pop morality.

The point? How can you have a "STANDARD" if said standard is not "standard/universal or ever changing?

Standards change.

Exchange rates are a standard

no they are not.
by the every changing properties means exchange rates are anything but standard!

but fluctuate as do interest rates.

but we are not talking about intrest rates are we?

Everything changes.

God's standards did not.

For example, in the UK we used to execute criminals but our moral standards increased and we stopped doing that.

british 'morality is not a world stard moe-ron it is a pop standard for the british people in the time we happen to live in! That is my whole point.
People change God does not.

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For who? the 1%ers who live in modern first world countries? not even them as a collective. As "pop morality" is divided even amoung us. Example Euro 'morality' has run away from American pop morality.

The point? How can you have a "STANDARD" if said standard is not "standard/universal or ever changing?

Standards change.

Exchange rates are a standard

no they are not.
by the every changing properties means exchange rates are anything but standard!

but fluctuate as do interest rates.

but we are not talking about intrest rates are we?

Everything changes.

God's standards did not.

For example, in the UK we used to execute criminals but our moral standards increased and we stopped doing that.

british 'morality is not a world standard moe-ron it is a pop standard for the british people in the time we happen to live in! That is my whole point.
People change God does not.