*trigger warning* What if atheism's not all it seems?

[downbeatplumb]

Ah the old "I was once an atheist like you" line.

Then goes on to make wild claims about atheism as though the ex-atheist does not know what atheism is. My suspicions were raised.

So poe or just wrong.

[Brian37]

"I used to be"..........

I don't care, that is not an argument.  So what comic book club did you fall back into? TO THE OP.

[LastPoet]

Ah the old "I was once an atheist like you" line.

Then goes on to make wild claims about atheism as though the ex-atheist does not know what atheism is. My suspicions were raised.

So poe or just wrong.

The pehemptive trigger warning kinda gives thar away.

Typical drive by shooting with bollocks. Better than bullets.

[Angrboda]

You were warned.

[Whateverist]

Hmmm...trying to decide if this violates the prime directive or not. Kinda similar to posts that assume all Christians are Evangelical fundamentalists.

As to my understanding limited as it is, he is making a case of sorts. So yeah discussion. As to his characterization of atheists... well, not really offended. Its a religion of cats.

The OP himself doesn't seem interested in discussion but plenty of other are.

[purplepurpose]

"Definition of realism

concern for fact or reality and rejection of the impractical and visionary

Definition of idealism

theory that ultimate reality lies in a realm transcending phenomena"

Everything is fine until believers draw their Trump card - hell blackmail to drag other people in to their business project. That's when people are justly triggered.

[Aegon]

[Catholic_Lady]

Hi, all

I used to frequent these forums just over two years ago when I was a staunch atheist myself - I used to post anti-religion memes on Facebook, thought Richard Dawkins was super cool, laughed at the *obviously* intellectually inferior religious fools (because the only measure of one's intelligence is whether they refute a god and submit themselves to the great and glorious concept of ~rationalism~ - right?), and generally, I acted like a very proper atheist.

But amidst all of my unwavering sense self-assurance and intellectualism, I now see in hindsight that I failed to ask myself one very important question - what makes me so sure of my beliefs?

I pose the above question to you today because I want you to consider this deeply. I now cringe at my past self, how arrogant and facetious I acted towards a topic which I, and every single one of you reading this post, have absolutely no certainty of. We are all clueless. We can guess, yes - we can ponder and theorise what the answer could be. But ultimately the answers we all come up with are nothing short of personal opinion or hope. Spouting out statements full of 100% assurance, as I see so many atheists do, like "There is no afterlife - deal with it" or "God doesn't exist - now enjoy life" demonstrate an almost - dare I say - religious sense of certainty?

This brings me to my next point: whether you are willing to see this or not (and I too remember wincing years ago when people said this but I now see their reasoning) - atheism follows almost all of the characteristics of an organised religion. It provides you with a sense of certitude, like you have figured out the universe; it gives you a community to belong to; there are bishop-like figures, think Dawkins, Krauss, etc etc., you make statements which you don't know are true for sure. - and finally: non-believers should be ridiculed because their views are *obviously* wrong and yours are completely, unquestionably correct - right?

Beyond this, I wish to understand the following: why is such visceral contempt held towards the idea of daring to have some hope that this universe may have a greater meaning beyond this one? Did you ever consider the person who has just lost their home, or their family, whose life is completely empty and whose only consolation is the hope that maybe there is a loving god out there who cares for them? Their opinion is no less valid than yours, and most of these people hold no ill will towards anyone. They choose (and I can completely understand why) to be optimistic and hopeful in what can be a sad and confusing world rather than desperately trying - quite strangely - to promote the idea of a universe devoid of any greater meaning at all. I ask you to please consider this the next time you laugh at such people.

Finally, to wrap up this post, I want to make one more point: if you are to fully embrace the cold harshness of rationalism and scientific reasoning as a guide for your philosophical views, you must see that in doing this you also accept that in nature there are no concepts of good or bad - the only guide you can get from it is to take what you can get and maximise your own happiness. No justice, no reward for good, or judgement for bad. Just do as you please. This is what rationalism looks like in practice - not ideal for a cohesive society.

I'm not sure about you, but given that our views on the world are personal choice due to our lack of knowledge about it all, I'd take a creed which at its core promotes love, justice, and selflessness towards others over a world view that's equally unprovable but is rooted in nothing more than a cold, every-man-for-himself cesspit.

I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

Best wishes,
- Z

First of all, welcome back to the forums. I do remember you from before.

It's always interesting to see people switch back between atheism and theism... or vice versa. If I may ask, did any particular event or conversation lead you to go back to believing, or was it strictly your own thoughts without outside sources?

As for the rest of your post, while I agree that atheism itself is literally devoid of any further meaning to life besides the physical here and now, I don't think this necessarily means all atheist people are pessimistic, empty, or cold. It really jist depends on the person. There are going to be different personality types and outlook on life regardless of what someone believes.

However I do agree with you that some atheist people do seem to be a bit too preoccupied and even upset about other people believing. People like that do indeed remind me of the more extreme religious folks That try to force their beliefs down your throat through name calling and mockery. Two sides of the same coin with these type of people, so I agree with you there.

[PhilosophicalZebra]

Sorry if "trigger warning" seemed a bit of a juvenile phrase, I meant it to be tongue in cheek since obviously coming on to an atheist forum visited by people who are keen to express their views, saying "Hey, maybe you're not totally right." isn't going to attract the most positive responses as I see

I'm not a troll or anything like that, nor am I strongly religious. I've just seen some flaws in atheism over the last few years and am sincerely interested in a discussion about it now that I can no longer see from the point of view of a total atheist myself. Some people gave some decent, thought-provoking answers and I thank you for that. It's a little sad that some jumped to ad hominem attacks, especially when I thought reasoned discussion was valued by you guys.

Anyway, to respond to some of the points made:

"Tell me exactly how god gives the universe greater meaning."

It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on; there will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad; we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love; and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance - to name just a few. On the contrary, and if you disagree please provide a solid argument, nothing more than the following can be extrapolated from an atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.

My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. But of the two, which do you think may be a little better both for the individual and society as a whole when all is considered? Both the atheists are theists are taking leaps of faith when they make statements of certainty but at least the theists are doing so in the hope of a better day and trying to be optimistic. How terrible!

"there is no "atheist community" to which I belong."

Then why are you on here on an atheist forum ready to defend your views along with many others when someone questions them?

"A common misunderstanding.  Not all "opinions" are, in fact, equal."

Absolutely, and I thoroughly agree. In this case, I am trying to say that those who say "There is a god, I know it" and "There isn't a god, I know it" have equal amounts of proof for their statements. Each take a leap of faith, atheists just fill in the gaps that we don't understand with certainty that these gaps will never be filled with anything supernatural. Is that assumption not a little closed-minded given how little we have yet to learn about the universe around us? Keeping an open mind about what me may not know and hoping for the best seems more reasoned to me but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

You were a shitty atheist.

Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.

As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?

- Z

---

@Catholic_Lady

Thanks for your reply - it's cool to know you remember me!

It was really just a bit more life experience, and a more full understanding of why religious people believe what they do. I realised that as open-minded as I thought I was being, I had really been very closed-minded and overly sure that my view only was correct. I witnessed more the power that religion has and how much it helps people and communities. And although I accept I know nothing more than anyone does, I like to have some hope that there is something out there. I can't prove it and I can't say it's there for sure, but I'd rather my leap of faith be for something so positive and meaningful rather than a leap of faith towards a meaningless world.

I totally agree too that of course not all atheists are the same - absolutely not. As you say, everyone has a different personality. I guess I'm just addressing some of the similar views that a lot of atheists have.

[henryp]

Sorry if "trigger warning" seemed a bit of a juvenile phrase, I meant it to be tongue in cheek since obviously coming on to an atheist forum visited by people who are keen to express their views, saying "Hey, maybe you're not totally right." isn't going to attract the most positive responses as I see

I'm not a troll or anything like that, nor am I strongly religious. I've just seen some flaws in atheism over the last few years and am sincerely interested in a discussion about it now that I can no longer see from the point of view of a total atheist myself. Some people gave some decent, thought-provoking answers and I thank you for that. It's a little sad that some jumped to ad hominem attacks, especially when I thought reasoned discussion was valued by you guys.

Anyway, to respond to some of the points made:

"Tell me exactly how god gives the universe greater meaning."

It give the universe greater meaning because if it were to exist it would mean the following: We may one day be reunited with our family members and friends who have passed on; there will be justice and judgments for both the good and bad; we are each of value, indispensable, and worthy of love; and the world was created with some greater purpose in mind rather than just from a sheer cold happenstance - to name just a few. On the contrary, and if you disagree please provide a solid argument, nothing more than the following can be extrapolated from an atheistic work view: we're all just animals who have no real significance in this world, we are all going to die and never return, nothing we ever do will ever really have any lasting meaning, and the world is built on nothing more than cold, random forces.

My point is: you cannot prove the latter to be true. Nor can I prove the former to be true. But of the two, which do you think may be a little better both for the individual and society as a whole when all is considered? Both the atheists are theists are taking leaps of faith when they make statements of certainty but at least the theists are doing so in the hope of a better day and trying to be optimistic. How terrible!

"there is no "atheist community" to which I belong."

Then why are you on here on an atheist forum ready to defend your views along with many others when someone questions them?

"A common misunderstanding.  Not all "opinions" are, in fact, equal."

Absolutely, and I thoroughly agree. In this case, I am trying to say that those who say "There is a god, I know it" and "There isn't a god, I know it" have equal amounts of proof for their statements. Each take a leap of faith, atheists just fill in the gaps that we don't understand with certainty that these gaps will never be filled with anything supernatural. Is that assumption not a little closed-minded given how little we have yet to learn about the universe around us? Keeping an open mind about what me may not know and hoping for the best seems more reasoned to me but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

You were a shitty atheist.

Ha, so there are levels of goodness and properness for an atheist and how they conduct themselves? Sounds suspiciously like other world views that you seem to disagree with.

As for the good and bad concept existing: Because we still live in a society which has religious concepts entrenched in our culture, we don't see that good and bad are concepts which at a fundamental level were heavily influenced by religion. Things like helping those who are needy and putting others before ourselves. And even though religion is starting to die, these parts of it have still survived even though we now often mistakenly think they are nothing do with religion. Imagine no religion at all and just a cold Darwinian style society which never had religion - how do you define good and bad?

- Z

Hypothetically, if all the shortcomings of atheism were conceded.  It's just, in reality, a lawless world devoid of any purpose.  What makes that untrue?  It's not great.  A nice God and meaning and eternal life seems better.  But do you really believe in God, or do you feel you have to believe in God because the alternative is really bad.   

In that way, religion reminds me a bit of cancer patients.  The Doc says "You've got a 25% chance of survival."  And the patient and their family always says "We're going to beat this thing!"  Because the alternative is dying.  And even though they know that's more likely, they prefer to believe the positive result is going to happen.  But with God, it's more of a 0% chance of survival, and religious folks still say "We're going to beat this thing!" anyways.

For some people, atheism is a bit like seeing how hotdogs are made.  And after they see it, they say "Gross, I'm going back to not knowing how hotdogs are made."   That's sort of the vibe your OP gives off.