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I think what may be confusing to theists is that an individual can be a different kind of atheist in different contexts. Like, for me:
I'm, in a general sense, an agnostic atheist. I'm open to the possibility of something existing that could check off most of the boxes required for godhood, but since I haven't encountered any proof of its existence, I don't believe such a thing exists.
Regarding the religions I've been exposed to in my life, I'm a strong/gnostic atheist. I find religions to be inherently absurd. I can see the historical value in them, as myths, but beyond that? Nope.
Above all else, I'm an apatheist. The idea of god or gods plays absolutely 0 role in my day-to-day life. I'm certainly not going to change who I am for one. The god question holds no interest for me. I don't care.*
So, with atheists, it's not necessarily a matter of the definitions shifting, but rather the context in which an atheist is explaining themselves.
*I visit here only because it's tiring to be embedded in a culture where the notion of god is accepted as the default. This is the only atheist forum I visit, and I don't visit or even discuss my lack of faith elsewhere online or IRL.
January 18, 2018 at 7:08 pm (This post was last modified: January 18, 2018 at 7:40 pm by Banned.)
(January 18, 2018 at 2:07 am)Astreja Wrote:
(January 17, 2018 at 8:46 pm)Banned Wrote: Where does guilt come from?
Isn't it a basic fear of survival?
I'm not sure, but it might be an evolved trait. It may be related to the shock to the gut one feels after having a really close call in a dangerous situation.
That's about right. We can figure out that guilt is about responsibility to others. So shame and guilt are similar in a sense. A fearful situation in survival may trigger a sense of great responsibility to the group or leader, and guilt/fear if that action failed.
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Atheism is attempting self hypnosis, it is trying to convince oneself of something.
Some people would call that a poorly developed religion.
"The fool says in his heart, there is no God" that's the definition of the Bible. The Bible also claims that they already know what the truth is, but they are just trying to back away from it. That's attempted self hypnosis.
The definition of sin varies with people, especially if religious teachings are consulted, and that's where the discrepancies increase.
That's one of the reasons the thread topic hasn't been settled.
The beliefs about original sin vary within the Catholic church, even with its officials, but an understanding of its hierarchy and who believes what, shows why that is, and what the top and inside of the catholic church actually teaches.
However, it is fairly obvious what she means in the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Mary had to be without sin, "holy flesh," in order to produce the perfect son.
But the Bible teaches that Jesus was born of the same flesh and blood as all human beings.
So admitting you are a sinner, has nothing to do with inheriting guilt or sin, but inheriting the consequences of weakened moral tendencies, which Jesus also inherited, but never gave in to.
And admitting you're a sinner will include the admission of having sinned, and having developed the tendency to repeat the same, because that is what sin does, it ruins the capacity to do good.
The immediate question will be "how come atheists/sinners do good?" That is a fact, and a fairly big topic that doesn't belong here.
January 18, 2018 at 7:42 pm (This post was last modified: January 18, 2018 at 7:43 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(January 18, 2018 at 7:08 pm)Banned Wrote: Atheism is
Jus Stahp, lol.
Accept that you will never be able to complete any sentence that begins with those two words without saying some silly religious thing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
January 18, 2018 at 7:48 pm (This post was last modified: January 18, 2018 at 7:49 pm by drfuzzy.)
(January 18, 2018 at 7:08 pm)Banned Wrote:
(January 18, 2018 at 2:07 am)Astreja Wrote:
I'm not sure, but it might be an evolved trait. It may be related to the shock to the gut one feels after having a really close call in a dangerous situation.
That's about right. We can figure out that guilt is about responsibility to others. So shame and guilt are similar in a sense. A fearful situation in survival may trigger a sense of great responsibility to the group or leader, and guilt/fear if that action failed.
Quote:Banned: Atheism is attempting self hypnosis, it is trying to convince oneself of something.
Some people would call that a poorly developed religion.
"The fool says in his heart, there is no God" that's the definition of the Bible. The Bible also claims that they already know what the truth is, but they are just trying to back away from it. That's attempted self hypnosis.
The definition of sin varies with people, especially if religious teachings are consulted, and that's where the discrepancies increase.
That's one of the reasons the thread topic hasn't been settled.
The beliefs about original sin vary within the Catholic church, even with its officials, but an understanding of its hierarchy and who believes what, shows why that is, and what the top and inside of the catholic church actually teaches.
However, it is fairly obvious what she means in the doctrine of the immaculate conception. Mary had to be without sin, "holy flesh," in order to produce the perfect son.
But the Bible teaches that Jesus was born of the same flesh and blood as all human beings.
So admitting you are a sinner, has nothing to do with inheriting guilt or sin, but inheriting the consequences of weakened moral tendencies, which Jesus also inherited, but never gave in to.
And admitting you're a sinner will include the admission of having sinned, and having developed the tendency to repeat the same, because that is what sin does, it ruins the capacity to do good.
The immediate question will be "how come atheists/sinners do good?" That is a fact, and a fairly big topic that doesn't belong here.
Say WHAT? Attempted self-hypnosis?
The sudden awareness of "I can't believe this crap, it's ridiculous!" is self-hypnosis? It seems to me that praying over and over to have enough faith to accept certain teachings qualifies as self-hypnosis. And it's quite clear that indoctrinating children into a religion is brainwashing. And OF COURSE the Bible says in Psalm 14 "The fool says in his heart, there is no God". The book claims that the war-demon sky daddy exists. Of course it says that anyone that thinks otherwise is a fool. The only thing that proves is that the witch doctors who wrote the book were trying to control people.
And a "poorly defined religion"? Seriously?
re·li·gion
noun
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
More: a particular system of faith and worship.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(January 18, 2018 at 2:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Im not versed on all the different definitions... agnostic, agnostic atheist, gnostic atheist, atheist, anti theist... etc. It seems different definitions are given for each every time definitions are given. Im not sure if there is like an official source that defines all these.
Like an official source that defines with zero ambiguity, the Catholic Church's stance on original sin, a stance that is not open to interpretation by Church members? No, I'm afraid not.
But then just a few months back you took part in a discussion on this exact topic. You must have absorbed and understood what was said otherwise you wouldn't have kudo'd the posts that clarified the issue.
(November 29, 2017 at 12:46 pm)FatAndFaithless Wrote:
(November 29, 2017 at 12:35 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I am just as confused as ever on the difference between agnostic and atheist.
The colloquial usage can be confusing because it's nearly always used incorrectly. The (incorrect) popular thought among people who aren't familiar with the terms is that agnostic = i don't know if god exists, and atheist = I know god does not exist.
The actual meaning of the terms (or more accurately, positions) are slightly different and actually pretty easy to understand.
A/gnosticism addresses knowledge - an agnostic would say that the existence of god is unknown/unknowable, that we can't say that we 'know it to be true' that a god exists or does not exist, whereas a gnostic would be the opposite - they would say that you can know for sure whether or not a god exists.
A/theism addresses one's belief - a theist would say they believe that it's true or likely true that a god exists (with any attendant doctrinal/religious details), whereas an atheist would say they do not believe that a god exists.
The terms are not opposite ends of a spectrum, neither is agnostic a 'middle' position. A/gnosticism and a/theism describe two different things.
I am an agnostic atheist. I don't think we can know for sure if a god exists or not, but i currently do not believe that a god exists.
Many theists are agnostic as well - they don't claim they know for absolute certain that a god exists, but they believe that one does. Gnostic theists would obviously say they believe that a god exists, and also that they KNOW for certain that god exists.
So there isn't really such a thing as simply "an agnostic," because that doesn't tell you at all what they believe.
Or are you 'just asking questions'?
My highlights.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
Some of you have outlined the self concept of being a vile sinner is an insult to our humanity.
Socially that's true, we should not judge others or put ourselves down. The only safe place to have such a confession is with God in private, where there is tenderness, understanding and acceptance. That is why it is so important to have a correct knowledge of God.
January 18, 2018 at 8:51 pm (This post was last modified: January 18, 2018 at 9:01 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Factually, it is also true. There is nothing about humanity that makes us inherently or insurmountably "vile". Some people may be vile, and for some people their vile natures may be beyond their ability to change......but those people..are not all people..or even close to a tiny fraction of all people.
"God"..on the other hand, is sorely lacking in any "tenderness, understanding, and acceptance." If you want -any- of those things, you're going to have to go find them...in people...and if one could only find answers to "x" in god, then no answers will ever be forthcoming..because "god" aint fuckin talkin.
Comments such as those above are exactly what Hitchens was referring to when he made his "maximum of servility and solipsism" remark - and it;s comments such as the ones above that form the basis of anti-theist criticism of god beliefs, which hold regardless of the existence of a god or of a persons status of belief -in- the existence of a god.
Even a believer can express and demonstrate the validity of anti-theist sentiments...and you all commonly do...just, you know, about everyone else's fake gods.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(January 18, 2018 at 7:08 pm)Banned Wrote: ..."The fool says in his heart, there is no God"...
And the rest of the verse?
"They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good."
Now this is god with the capitalised 'G' the Christian God. So now then according to you, all atheist, Buddhists, Muslims, Animists et,al are corrupt, abominable wastrels?
Here's another fine verse from Psalms: Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
The bible. If this is the moral code you live by you should be shot on sight.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
(January 18, 2018 at 7:08 pm)Banned Wrote: Atheism is
Jus Stahp, lol.
Accept that you will never be able to complete any sentence that begins with those two words without saying some silly religious thing.
I find it hilarious when people who aren't atheists attempt to tell atheists what atheism actually is. Especially when their definition is religious gibbering and word salad masquerading as profundity.
Atheists truly, really, honestly don't believe in the existence of god. It's not us being angry at god. It's not us secretly believing, but choosing sin over god. It's not any of those things theists tell themselves in order to help them sleep at night. We don't think there's anything there.
Pro tip: atheists also don't recognize the authority, let alone the divinity, that's purportedly in the bible. So referencing it as something we should take seriously is a clear sign that you don't understand what atheism is, or who you're talking to. Quoting/paraphrasing it is not compelling to us. Usually quite the opposite, in fact.
(January 18, 2018 at 7:42 pm)Khemikal Wrote: Jus Stahp, lol.
Accept that you will never be able to complete any sentence that begins with those two words without saying some silly religious thing.
I find it hilarious when people who aren't atheists attempt to tell atheists what atheism actually is. Especially when their definition is religious gibbering and word salad masquerading as profundity.
Atheists truly, really, honestly don't believe in the existence of god. It's not us being angry at god. It's not us secretly believing, but choosing sin over god. It's not any of those things theists tell themselves in order to help them sleep at night. We don't think there's anything there.
Pro tip: atheists also don't recognize the authority, let alone the divinity, that's purportedly in the bible. So referencing it as something we should take seriously is a clear sign that you don't understand what atheism is, or who you're talking to. Quoting/paraphrasing it is not compelling to us. Usually quite the opposite, in fact.
For my own part, I understand that atheists generally don't choose not to believe... they just don't. We often don't have complete control over what we do and do not believe to be true. If a person genuinely seeks truth and goes wherever it leads them, you can't really blame them. That's how I see it anyway.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
