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Mental torture
#21
RE: Mental torture
(January 14, 2018 at 3:38 pm)mh.brewer Wrote: Good theology???

Star Wars was a great movie, but Yoda isn't real.
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#22
RE: Mental torture
(January 15, 2018 at 9:26 am)Grandizer Wrote:
(January 15, 2018 at 9:17 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote: I don't think that it is a choose your own adventure type of thing.  And I would not say that a good theology, is what just suits your fancy! (whether that theology leads to atheism or Christianity) 

So then, it depends on what you mean by "sick concept".   I have the feeling that this is more of an emotional rejection, rather than a logical one.  So then, the question is, why do you think this, and why should I?

It's not something you explain with elaborate logical argumentation. It's just sick and barbaric in the same way I view other forms of torture as sick and barbaric (or actually, even worse). I can't convince you that it is, but then again, not my problem. I'm just glad I'm out of that mess of Christian apologetic nonsense.

So then it sounds like I was correct then, it is more of an emotional issue, rather than a rational one. 

This is naturally more difficult to discuss.  It's subjective, and thus varies from person to person with no connection between them. It can oppose reason, with little backing it.  It's not even really supported.

I do often find, in regards to this subject, many people's objections seem more fitting to a cartoon, rather than the Bible.  For instance while I don't think torture is completely incorrect as a translation , I sometimes see it giving people the wrong idea.  I would describe it more in terms of torment, and separation from God as a consequence of sin. 

The main thing is that you don't let your feelings determine what you view as reality (that would be insane).  It really doesn't mean any more, than a Christian objecting to an atheistic annihilationism, because they feel strongly against it's lack of justice.  Your feelings against it does not effect objective truth, and while they may be useful as a quick guide, if you cannot ground them in something greater, you may want to look at them closer
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#23
RE: Mental torture
Quote: I think you should listen to and be able to address good theology, before criticizing.

Let me guess, RR.  "Good" theology means "your" theology.  You're a bullshit artist like all the rest.
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#24
RE: Mental torture
(January 15, 2018 at 11:47 am)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: I think you should listen to and be able to address good theology, before criticizing.

Let me guess, RR.  "Good" theology means "your" theology.  You're a bullshit artist like all the rest.

No... I've had to change my mind before, I'm sure I'm wrong on some things now, and I may have to eat some crow in the future.  
The question always comes down to why?  What is the reason or the basis for the claim?

A disagreement, doesn't mean that there is bad theology.  I can respect someone who disagrees with me on a matter, if they have thought through and can support their position.  If on the other hand, if you have poor hermeneutical practices, are reading into the text, or just ignoring information, then that I would consider bad theology.  They should also be reasonably informed on the matter.  Really none of these things do not apply only to theology. 

As well, I believe in the Principle of Charity.  That you should interpret the opposing person or idea, in the strongest and best possible light.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#25
RE: Mental torture
RR, what is good theology as compared to bad, and how are we, the unconvinced, supposed to tell the difference when it all sounds like bullshit?
Thief and assassin for hire. Member in good standing of the Rogues Guild.
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#26
RE: Mental torture
(January 15, 2018 at 12:59 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: As well, I believe in the Principle of Charity.  That you should interpret the opposing person or idea, in the strongest and best possible light.

Unfortunately, sometimes...after the principle of charity is applied, some propositions are still to silly to entertain.

Imagine how silly they sound -before- we apply the principle of charity to that silliness, and try to reinterpret godisms in a better light than they come to us?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#27
RE: Mental torture
(January 14, 2018 at 2:01 pm)Minimalist Wrote: When all you've got to sell is bullshit naturally you tell people it smells like roses.

Why listen to those fucks in the first place?

Fear and doubts that I had.

Min, if we presume that God exists like in popular books described, what would you told him or done?
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#28
RE: Mental torture
(January 15, 2018 at 2:06 pm)Khemikal Wrote:
(January 15, 2018 at 12:59 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: As well, I believe in the Principle of Charity.  That you should interpret the opposing person or idea, in the strongest and best possible light.

Unfortunately, sometimes...after the principle of charity is applied, some propositions are still to silly to entertain.

Imagine how silly they sound -before- we apply the principle of charity to that silliness, and try to reinterpret godisms in a better light than they come to us?

Perhaps,  however I think that if you are not going to entertain them, and give them any serious thought, then you should at least be up front and not pretend that you are.  If yours is a position of ignorance and incredulity then man up to it.

I think  that the notion that nothing has causally sufficient power for anything is pretty silly.   However I still ask why, they believe that; as well as, questions that would follow from such a notion.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man.  - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire.  - Martin Luther
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#29
RE: Mental torture
Good theology, bad theology, incompatible with x's interpretation of my special-book theology (sigh).
Sure, there is "bad" theology.  I think "prosperity theology" is pretty heinous.  
But when people talk about theology now, I keep smacking up against what theology is: "the study of religious faith, practice, and experience; especially : the study of God and of God's relation to the world"
The study of God's relation to the world.  IMHO that clearly states: arguing at length over something that doesn't exist.  I would much rather listen to pre-teen-age boys argue over who would win if Batman and Spiderman had a fight.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#30
RE: Mental torture
(January 15, 2018 at 11:13 am)RoadRunner79 Wrote:
(January 15, 2018 at 9:26 am)Grandizer Wrote: It's not something you explain with elaborate logical argumentation. It's just sick and barbaric in the same way I view other forms of torture as sick and barbaric (or actually, even worse). I can't convince you that it is, but then again, not my problem. I'm just glad I'm out of that mess of Christian apologetic nonsense.

So then it sounds like I was correct then, it is more of an emotional issue, rather than a rational one. 

This is naturally more difficult to discuss.  It's subjective, and thus varies from person to person with no connection between them. It can oppose reason, with little backing it.  It's not even really supported.

I do often find, in regards to this subject, many people's objections seem more fitting to a cartoon, rather than the Bible.  For instance while I don't think torture is completely incorrect as a translation , I sometimes see it giving people the wrong idea.  I would describe it more in terms of torment, and separation from God as a consequence of sin. 

The main thing is that you don't let your feelings determine what you view as reality (that would be insane).  It really doesn't mean any more, than a Christian objecting to an atheistic annihilationism, because they feel strongly against it's lack of justice.  Your feelings against it does not effect objective truth, and while they may be useful as a quick guide, if you cannot ground them in something greater, you may want to look at them closer

Like I said, if you dont see anything wrong with divinely sanctioned eternal torment (or mental torture) then theres nothing I can say to make you see otherwise.

Your post also highlights one of the major problems with divine morality. Its not grounded in reasoning or healthy emotional thinking.
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