Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist

[Shell B]

Grabbing a tit isn't one of the things you do to initiate sex.

But "the claw"...apparently, is. 

Dude, he'd already eaten her out, IIRC. They'd kissed and undressed. The claw may not be pleasant, but it wasn't like, "Hey, I just met you . . . "

[The Grand Nudger]

and this is crazy, but heres my number, claw me baby.

I know, I know..I was having fun with it, but being serious..grabbing a tit is -exactly- what alot of people take to be a test case for sexual consent. You reach for her beasts and get an answer. I think it's a flawed methodology, but it's common. It's also the point at which some folks cross their first "no" threshold, verbal or physical. I know you know..just peanut gallery musings.

[Shell B]

Imma pee my pants.

[henryp]

I did read what you said.  It's that guys should stop if the woman says no.  And if it's uncomfortable, find out what's wrong.

I said more than that. On just what you paraphrased alone, I said more like, "find out specifically what is uncomfortable, whether it's everything or something specific."

That's not a ton of responsibility.  It's 'don't commit a sex crime against her'.  We're dumb animals, but I think we can shoulder a bit more of the burden.

Don't be ridiculous. That's not what I said.

You also said creepy guys kissing you is gross, but just a part of being a woman. 

Nope. Not what I said. It's part of being human. It applies to men too. Also, I at the very least implied that if there is any reason for him to think the kiss is unwanted, he shouldn't do it. Sometimes, going in for a kiss is how people, both men and women, initiate mating. Stop trying to make it sound like I'm trying to shrug off assault and normalize unwarranted sexual advances.

You're definitely coming from a different place when you have a 'just deal with it' attitude for a lot of this stuff that I think is a ways away from what many want to or are capable of just dealing with.

You've got to be shitting me. "Just deal with it?" You're not even defining "it." You're just blasting out one-liners that you think sum up my whole position on sexual interactions, misrepresenting me in grievous ways. Don't worry. You're not the first man (I assumed your gender) to tell me my opinions on womanhood are wrong on this forum while signalling that they're super feminist guardians of the vagina.

Yeah, for whatever reason, I haven't been able to pin down your takes on the matter.  That's not intentional.  I'm not trying to 'win an argument', I'm just curious what people think, so it's odd there's been such a disconnect.  Usually, I'm better at intuiting people's opinions.  

But as it pertains to this discussion, I've read a lot of other women who've had a very different take than you (or maybe not, since I've been getting it wrong).  So I'm not discounting your opinion, I'm trying to reconcile the two differing opinions together in thinking about how things should be just as a thought exercise. 

As a virtue signalling super feminist vagina guarder, I'm often prone to this sort of thing.

[The Grand Nudger]

If I'm not mistaken, grabbing ass is the female prelude to grabbing penis in pretty much the same vein as breasts to vag goes for guys.  Clarity from the ladies on that?

Say you think you're getting the good signals, do you cup a cheek before you reach for the unit?

[Shell B]

Yeah, something along those lines. It goes, hand to skin touch on an innocuous place, lean in for kiss (not forcefully, dude. Give me time to move my face.), slow move for the booby or but (if you're a gay man or woman). If all that goes well, it's genitals time.

[Catholic_Lady]

I said more than that. On just what you paraphrased alone, I said more like, "find out specifically what is uncomfortable, whether it's everything or something specific."


Don't be ridiculous. That's not what I said.


Nope. Not what I said. It's part of being human. It applies to men too. Also, I at the very least implied that if there is any reason for him to think the kiss is unwanted, he shouldn't do it. Sometimes, going in for a kiss is how people, both men and women, initiate mating. Stop trying to make it sound like I'm trying to shrug off assault and normalize unwarranted sexual advances.


You've got to be shitting me. "Just deal with it?" You're not even defining "it." You're just blasting out one-liners that you think sum up my whole position on sexual interactions, misrepresenting me in grievous ways. Don't worry. You're not the first man (I assumed your gender) to tell me my opinions on womanhood are wrong on this forum while signalling that they're super feminist guardians of the vagina.

Yeah, for whatever reason, I haven't been able to pin down your takes on the matter.  That's not intentional.  I'm not trying to 'win an argument', I'm just curious what people think, so it's odd there's been such a disconnect.  Usually, I'm better at intuiting people's opinions.  

But as it pertains to this discussion, I've read a lot of other women who've had a very different take than you (or maybe not, since I've been getting it wrong).  So I'm not discounting your opinion, I'm trying to reconcile the two differing opinions together in thinking about how things should be just as a thought exercise. 

As a virtue signalling super feminist vagina guarder, I'm often prone to this sort of thing.

From what i understand, Shell B still does agree that being pushy the way Aziz was is wrong and should be morally discouraged. Just not that it should be a sexual crime.

Honestly I think you both agree and are just talking past each other. I think we all agree.

[The Grand Nudger]

Good god that sounds like alot of work. 

Since I've been reading and rereading this sad little story so much today....it seems like reciprocity was the compelling factor in why she acted inexplicably. She had one foot in, had just been serviced, and felt like she couldn't pull out now..even though he pulled a surprise aziz and engaged the creep drive at max factor.

[SaStrike]

Pretty sure if you can give a bj "against your will" you can sign a form "against your will" or "under pressure". Consent forms will change nothing. Shit will still happen.

I agree.

Maybe we should try getting to the root of the problem? Promote sexual morality and respect for self and others. Discourage hook up culture. Discourage porn use. Discourage men and women using each other in bed...

Promote the radical idea that sex is a language of self giving love and commitment.

Now there's a thought.

Sounds good. Doesn't work. - Donald Trump 

No actually that sounds terrible. Im not even sure humans are monogamous by nature. And porn is good for uhh education purposes, so no. That would be a cruel world. 

But I agree with the mutual respect and not using each other part. Nicely said. 

The root of the problem is too blurry so I'm not sure that your suggestions would solve/prevent these things from happening.

[Amarok]

If we go in the other direction we get shit like this 




Or shit like the "philosophy" from MRA godfather Warren Farrell 

We often hear, “Rape is rape, right?” No. A stranger forcing himself on a woman at knife point is different from a man and woman having sex while drunk and having regrets the morning. What is different? When a woman agrees to a date, she does not make a choice to be sexual, but she does make a choice to explore sexual possibilities. The woman makes no such choice with a stranger or an acquaintance. (p. 315)

Or 

If the law tries to legislate our “yeses” and “noes” it will produce “the straitjacket generation” – a generation afraid to flirt, fearful of finding its love notes in a court suit. Date rape legislation will force suitors and courting to give way to courts and suing.
The empowerment of women lies not in the protection of females from date rape, but in resocializing both sexes to share date initiative taking and date paying so that both date rape and date fraud are minimized. We cannot end date rape by calling men “wimps” when they don’t initiate quickly enough, “rapists” when they do it too quickly, and “jerks” when they do it badly. If we increase the performance pressure only for men, we will reinforce men’s need to objectify women – which will lead to more rape. Men will be our rapists as long as men are our initiators.…
Laws on date rape create a climate of date hate. (p.340

Or 

We have forgotten that before we began calling this date rape and date fraud, we called it exciting. (pp. 314-315)

Or 

While the label “date rape” has helped women articulate the most dramatic aspect of dating from women’s perspective, men have no labels to help them articulate the most traumatic aspects of dating from their perspective. Now, of course, the most traumatic aspect is the possibility of being accused of date rape by a woman to whom he thought he was making love. If men did label the worst aspects of the traditional male role, though, they might label them “date robbery,” “date rejection,” “date responsibility,” “date fraud,” and “date lying.” (p.313, The Myth of Male Power, 1993 hardcover edition)

Or

If a man ignoring a woman’s verbal “no” is committing date rape, then a woman who says “no” with her verbal language but “yes” with her body language is committing date fraud. And a woman who continues to be sexual even after she says “no” is committing date lying.

Do women still do this? Two feminists found the answer is yes. Nearly 40 percent of college women acknowledged they had said “no” to sex even “when they meant yes.” In my own work with over 150,000 men and women – about half of whom are single – the answer is also yes. Almost all single women acknowledge they have agreed to go back to a guy’s place “just to talk” but were nevertheless responsive to his first kiss. Almost all acknowledge they’ve recently said something like “That’s far enough for now,” even as her lips are still kissing and her tongue is still touching his. (P 314)

Or

It is important that a woman’s “noes” be respected and her “yeses” be respected. And it is also important when her nonverbal “yeses” (tongues still touching) conflict with those verbal “noes” that the man not be put in jail for choosing the “yes” over the “no.”  He might just be trying to become her fantasy. (p. 315)

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Dude, he'd already eaten her out, IIRC. They'd kissed and undressed. The claw may not be pleasant, but it wasn't like, "Hey, I just met you .

Undressing, kissing, and eating out does not rant permission for the claw.