Aziz Ansari Doesn't Pick Up On "Non-Verbal Cues" and Gets Treated Like A Rapist

[Shell B]

She never said chased.

[The Grand Nudger]

What's the claw?

And woah I did NOT read about him chasing any girl around on the OP. Okay he's totes a predator then. Lol.

All I read was that they were having sex and she never told him to stop but she decided afterwards that it wasn't very fun so she decided to accuse him of rape. It takes two to have good sex! It's not like bad sex is 100% the guy's fault. Nor is "I didn't enjoy it" grounds for "So I guess he must have raped me then."

If the dude chased her around demanding sex until she gave in... then that totally is sexual assault.

He explicitly used location changes -when- she objected, and sold it as though he understood her objection.  This is what he was asking her, when he was asking her where she wanted to be fucked.  I honestly can't believe anyone is having trouble conceding that this was a pursuit tactic..and a horribly common and amateur one.  Won't fuck me here?  Lets go to the couch.  Won't fuck me there? What if I rub my penis on the back of your head or dry hump you?  

He pursued her, in his mind overcoming her many objections and what she seemed to think must have been clear discomfort, more than one of which he verbally acknowledged himself, he thought it was going great. -or so she says/he says, obviously.

[Mermaid]

She never said chased.

Ah you guys are too quick for me. This is what I am talking about from her account: 

"But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game.”

[Shell B]

He didnt chase her around the house.

From her account, he did.

"But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game."

That reads really weird to me. I don't know how to take that. Maybe he "chased" her, but I think it seems to leave out a lot. If it went on for thirty minutes, we don't get to hear a lot of dialogue and other actions she must have left out. If he just followed her around jamming his fingers in her throat, silently and with no other actions, that's beyond creepy, but I sincerely doubt that's precisely how it went down. The subtleties are missing, and those would be necessary to making a clear assessment.

[The Grand Nudger]

What's the claw?

She says Ansari began making a move on her that he repeated during their encounter. “The move he kept doing was taking his two fingers in a V-shape and putting them in my mouth, in my throat to wet his fingers, because the moment he’d stick his fingers in my throat he’d go straight for my vagina and try to finger me.” Grace called the move “the claw.”

@ Shell..the account goes on, after that..with quite a bit of detail and dialogue.....this is after the two minute drill that lastyed half an hour....and the claw

theres pretext to this..but..

She told babe that at first, she was happy with how he reacted. “He said, ‘Oh, of course, it’s only fun if we’re both having fun.’ The response was technically very sweet and acknowledging the fact that I was very uncomfortable. Verbally, in that moment, he acknowledged that I needed to take it slow. Then he said, ‘Let’s just chill over here on the couch.’”

This moment is particularly significant for Grace, because she thought that would be the end of the sexual encounter — her remark about not wanting to feel “forced” had added a verbal component to the cues she was trying to give him about her discomfort. When she sat down on the floor next to Ansari, who sat on the couch, she thought he might rub her back, or play with her hair — something to calm her down.

Ansari instructed her to turn around. “He sat back and pointed to his penis and motioned for me to go down on him. And I did. I think I just felt really pressured. It was literally the most unexpected thing I thought would happen at that moment because I told him I was uncomfortable.”

Soon, he pulled her back up onto the couch. She would tell her friend via text later that night, “He [made out] with me again and says, ‘Doesn’t look like you hate me.’”

Halfway into the encounter, he led her from the couch to a different part of his apartment. He said he had to show her something. Then he brought her to a large mirror, bent her over and asked her again, “Where do you want me to fuck you? Do you want me to fuck you right here?” He rammed his penis against her ass while he said it, pantomiming intercourse.

-and

“I just remember looking in the mirror and seeing him behind me. He was very much caught up in the moment and I obviously very much wasn’t,” Grace said. “After he bent me over is when I stood up and said no, I don’t think I’m ready to do this, I really don’t think I’m going to do this. And he said, ‘How about we just chill, but this time with our clothes on?’”

They got dressed, sat side by side on the couch they’d already “chilled” on, and he turned on an episode of Seinfeld. She’d never seen it before. She said that’s when the reality of what was going on sank in. “It really hit me that I was violated. I felt really emotional all at once when we sat down there. That that whole experience was actually horrible.”

While the TV played in the background, he kissed her again, stuck his fingers down her throat again, and moved to undo her pants. She turned away. She remembers “feeling in a different mindset at that point.”

“I remember saying, ‘You guys are all the same, you guys are all the fucking same.’” Ansari asked her what she meant. When she turned to answer, she says he met her with “gross, forceful kisses.”

....then....then...she finally gets herself out of the situation...but he snuck in another gross kiss before she made it out the door. A real pro.

[LadyForCamus]

To be clear, they're being labeled as such for creepy predatory behavior?  It would be preturnatural to pick up every cue..positive or negative.  It stretches my ability to believe a person when they say they could see absolutely -no- signs of a negative, though...when the events are what we have described to us....and in this case..she seems to recall giving repeated verbal cues in addition to the "non-verbal feelings potentially at play" which..in her case..sounded rather more like in effect, than potentially at play.  If I had a night like that, with some girl mumbling that we were all the same and trying to halt the penis party every here and there...I'd have been -reaching- for a notarized consent form with her picture ID embossed and signed in her own blood.  To me, the writing was on the wall.  If he didn't notice it at all, but doesnt deny her version of events..and that's his suspisciously lawyerly claim.....then he might actually be a danger to himself or others as a genuinely oblivious sexual predator.  

I think it's more likely that he's a garden variety creep...and at least to some extent he knows that.  That he did notice her objections..and he felt that he overcame them in the pursuit fantasy he was obviously playing at.

Just to clarify, my questions and comments to you were in a broad sense about how our society deals with these issues, not specifically about this particular scenario with Ansari.  I just wonder if men could benefit from a little education sometimes.  

Its like, I hear about male students on college campuses being educated about what is and isn’t consent in an attempt to reduce campus sexual assaults, and my knee-jerk reaction is to think, “why the hell do 19 and 20 year old guys need clarification on what is or isn’t consent?!”  And, then accounts like surface, and I wonder if it’s more necessary than I think.

Say, look what happens when we engage in open dialogue on a subject instead of letting the conversation get shut down by blanket accusations of victim blaming?  😏

Meh, lol.  

On the reas, though, my open dialogue on this one is that the difference between what ansari did and rape is one of degree, not category - off on a technicality.

Meh...lol.  😛  I am of the opinion that that determination is a presumptuous one.  I mean, how can we say for sure he was intentionally trying to prey on her?  Or, intentionally ignoring her cues?  She can’t even say for sure.

[Shell B]

Khem, I read the whole thing. Note: she remains naked when she goes to the couch with him, which makes me think he could have thought she was uncomfortable with the specific acts they were performing, not with sex altogether, because you could reasonably assume she would get dressed if she was uncomfortable. The second time, he suggests they put their clothes on, which is how we know she was still naked the first time.

[Catholic_Lady]

I think there's quite a difference between being chased and being followed. If I were to describe being chased by a man around his house, I'd say I was running away from him and he was running after me trying to catch me. And that absolutely would be assault, and extremely scary, no question. However, that is not at all what the article says.

[Thumpalumpacus]

He clearly followed her around the house even as she was clearly trying to impose distance between herself and him.

It may not have been a footrace, but it sure sounds like a chase to me.

[Mermaid]

From her account, he did.

"But the main thing was that he wouldn’t let her move away from him. She compared the path they cut across his apartment to a football play. “It was 30 minutes of me getting up and moving and him following and sticking his fingers down my throat again. It was really repetitive. It felt like a fucking game."

That reads really weird to me. I don't know how to take that. Maybe he "chased" her, but I think it seems to leave out a lot. If it went on for thirty minutes, we don't get to hear a lot of dialogue and other actions she must have left out. If he just followed her around jamming his fingers in her throat, silently and with no other actions, that's beyond creepy, but I sincerely doubt that's precisely how it went down. The subtleties are missing, and those would be necessary to making a clear assessment.

This is why I am not going to conclude one way or another about whether sexual assault took place.

---

I think there's quite a difference between being chased and being followed. If I were to describe being chased by a man around his house, I'd say I was running away from him and he was running after me trying to catch me. And that absolutely would be assault, and extremely scary, no question. However, that is not at all what the article says.

I don't think any of us that weren't there can possibly know.