Why some humans are so evil: double standards and irreligion

[WinterHold]

Atlass33

The truth of reality is that human evolution WILL ALWAYS produce BOTH cruelty and compassion. Unfortunately the reality is BOTH can work in getting to the point of reproduction. 

I don't say that to say humans should be fatalistic or default to inhuman brutality. I only say that as a reality. Just like we know hurricanes and volcanos and earthquakes can kill us too. Just like bacteria and cancer can kill us too. 

Humans  have always, and will always display acts of cruelty and compassion. The key to reducing harm isn't to chalk it up to old mythology, but to seek UNDERSTANDING of conditions that lead to that harm.  Japan is severely earthquake prone, but at the same time their scientists are CONSTANTLY seeking better technology to make better building codes to reduce the effects of earthquakes on buildings.

BUT the same can be said with human behaviors, which is why fields like psychology, psychiatry, criminology and neurology help us understand how we as a species behave under certain conditions.

Crimes like rape, and child molesting for example, are not a result of a magic super villain screwing with the brain of the criminal. Those crimes are understood through decades of psychology, psychiatry and documenting interviews with BOTH the victim and criminals. That understanding has lead us to knowing that those acts are not about sex, but about power and control.  In much the same way we know what conditions have the potential to lead to a hurricane.

Unfortunately religion, not just yours, but worldwide in all of our species history, makes very bad guesses as to why humans do what they do, good or bad.

Religion in all it's forms is a flawed perception which is a very bad gap answer as to why natural events happen.

"Natural" to the theist, is a very childish candy coated idea of "only good should happen". 

"Natural" to an objective observer is merely reporting what they observe, good or bad. Natural ethics is when you report then based upon where the evidence takes you, you seek solutions to even the bad natural events, just like building codes in Japan are constantly challenged to improve the safety of the structure. Just like the flu virus is natural and BAD which is why we create new vaccines to reduce the harm the virus causes.

Humans do have the essence of both "good & evil" inside their minds; I can say that no person is purely evil or purely good, we always stand in a gray spot.
I disagree with you that all religions fail at defining good and evil; or the natural gray spot we all stand in. Yes; many religions fail to define what is natural and what isn't; but I do believe that Islam is very different from other religions.

I'm a theist; and matters are not summed in a simple "only good should happen" sentence. Controlling (and creating) both good & evil, attributing the act of creation of both ways to a single entity, is one aspect I find very logical.

The problem with finding God; is the same as the problem of detecting earthquakes: "what is 'enough' to prove he's there for the person"?
i.e what is enough for you, to consider a ground bounce an "earthquake"?
In other words; the evidence is already there in the design. What was provided is enough.

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I doubt that the gangster would do what he did if he feared hell, and that the same would happen to him.

Weren't you just saying something about the inquisition?  

Meanwhile, the quran is torture porn, whomever wrote it was one sick puppy.....maybe that's why you think "fear of hell" should compel people?

No. I said:

Once you drop fear about that day; either by non-believe or believing that hell would pass you; then you'll probably skin people alive...or fight "terrorism".

Don't forget: many Christians believe that "hell" will never touch them if they "accept Jesus".
Kill, torture, butcher, then go confess !

[drfuzzy]

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Atlass33

The truth of reality is that human evolution WILL ALWAYS produce BOTH cruelty and compassion. Unfortunately the reality is BOTH can work in getting to the point of reproduction. 

I don't say that to say humans should be fatalistic or default to inhuman brutality. I only say that as a reality. Just like we know hurricanes and volcanos and earthquakes can kill us too. Just like bacteria and cancer can kill us too. 

Humans  have always, and will always display acts of cruelty and compassion. The key to reducing harm isn't to chalk it up to old mythology, but to seek UNDERSTANDING of conditions that lead to that harm.  Japan is severely earthquake prone, but at the same time their scientists are CONSTANTLY seeking better technology to make better building codes to reduce the effects of earthquakes on buildings.

BUT the same can be said with human behaviors, which is why fields like psychology, psychiatry, criminology and neurology help us understand how we as a species behave under certain conditions.

Crimes like rape, and child molesting for example, are not a result of a magic super villain screwing with the brain of the criminal. Those crimes are understood through decades of psychology, psychiatry and documenting interviews with BOTH the victim and criminals. That understanding has lead us to knowing that those acts are not about sex, but about power and control.  In much the same way we know what conditions have the potential to lead to a hurricane.

Unfortunately religion, not just yours, but worldwide in all of our species history, makes very bad guesses as to why humans do what they do, good or bad.

Religion in all it's forms is a flawed perception which is a very bad gap answer as to why natural events happen.

"Natural" to the theist, is a very childish candy coated idea of "only good should happen". 

"Natural" to an objective observer is merely reporting what they observe, good or bad. Natural ethics is when you report then based upon where the evidence takes you, you seek solutions to even the bad natural events, just like building codes in Japan are constantly challenged to improve the safety of the structure. Just like the flu virus is natural and BAD which is why we create new vaccines to reduce the harm the virus causes.

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Humans do have the essence of both "good & evil" inside their minds; I can say that no person is purely evil or purely good, we always stand in a gray spot.
I disagree with you that all religions fail at defining good and evil; or the natural gray spot we all stand in. Yes; many religions fail to define what is natural and what isn't; but I do believe that Islam is very different from other religions.

I'm a theist; and matters are not summed in a simple "only good should happen" sentence. Controlling (and creating) both good & evil, attributing the act of creation of both ways to a single entity, is one aspect I find very logical.

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The problem with finding God; is the same as the problem of detecting earthquakes: "what is 'enough' to prove he's there for the person"?
i.e what is enough for you, to consider a ground bounce an "earthquake"?
In other words; the evidence is already there in the design. What was provided is enough.

It's off of the topic of evil and on to the existence of a deity, but we know quite well what causes a "ground bounce".  No deity required.  If you meditate on a text long enough, and have been told repeatedly that when you do so and pray you will receive messages from a god, your brain will create those messages.  No deity required.  
What is enough to prove he's there?  Have him show up and say "hi".   We'll need video-cameras and multiple witnesses at the very least.

[WinterHold]

They do it because they want to. Because it makes them feel powerful. Some people are just bad people.

They belong to the Cartels, I want to believe the reason is just psychological, but these people are payed; and payed good.
My initial bet is greed and the desire to feel powerful.

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you understand what a cartel does to people who don't display the proper loyalty, what it does to their families?  Do you think that doesn't extend to their own employees?

So yeah, we see them do something horrible...but it would be lazy to think that they do it purely out of gree or lust for power, or even simple evil..though I'm sure that's true in a few cases of batshit crazy fucking psychos. Just as it would be lazy to imagine that they do it because they aren't religious. The majority of people in c and s american cartels, for example are -deeply- religious, not because the cartel is religious, but because the people who it is made up of are by default.

Some even support a cartel because they see the cartel as standing up to abusive government on their behalf. Helicopters spraying their farms with bullets..setting them on fire. Sons snatched in the middle of the night by faceless men with a single green eye. OFC they back the guy that shoots back. You should be very familiar with this, given your religion and residence. I can't fathom what it is, ultimately, that compels you to say things that I know you realize can't be true.

[The Valkyrie]

I don't fear any of those things, yet I have never committed atrocities. Why is that?

This.

Except what some may call my atrocities I call a public service.

[WinterHold]

I don't fear any of those things, yet I have never committed atrocities. Why is that?

You probably fear losing what you have?  You don't want to be killed, jailed, be taken away from your family. Lose your house.  Car.  Access to the forum. Or whatever else it is you value.

The cost of committing atrocities is also so high, that the idea of committing them is a non-starter even if you'd enjoy it.

Add onto that, we're taught from childhood 'doing bad things is bad.'  And there's just no reason to question it.  But if you remove those consequences, like with the super rich or super poor, or if you're in one of those places there are large benefits instead of consequences, then all of a sudden, people start going the other way.  

If there weren't a lot of redundancies in the system, humans wouldn't have lasted as long as we have.

I won't say "probably"; but I would say "maybe".
Since we are children, we are raised and brought up in societies that have a moral code, and a list of penalties in a constitution.

Some things are unified between all societies: like criminalizing killing and theft.
So in a way; we fear the reaction, and that fear disciplines the society; "deterrence".

I totally agree.

[The Grand Nudger]

Those things aren;t unified across all societies.  Some societies have/had no concept of property, and so no concept of theft, for example. Fear of reprisal couldn't even factor in in those cases, reprisal for what and by whom?

-and yet they managed not to "take each others stuff": as we would conceive of it.

Long story short...we don;t actually have to whip the shit out of people, or threaten to whip them..to keep them from doing bad shit. Honestly, that compells them to do bad shit in the first place. That might go at least a little way to explaining why people have been fucking up so hard particularly since we started believing in religions formed around that very concept. The man who accepts the doctrine of eternal torment isn't going to bat an eye at a moment of the same.

You may think that your acceptance of this is the reason that you're not a terrorist, but in truth, it's probably the reason that you're closer than I am to being one. You are actually describing law and norms, up above, as the employment of terror. Suggesting that terror is what makes us act right. You know who else thinks that? Allah and all his mujahideen.

[WinterHold]

I'm not a terrorist because I fear a lord. Fear a day of judgement.

That has to be one of the scariest shit someone can say.

I am not a teerorist because I want to foster a better world for everyone and by doing that fostering a better world for my descendants. I am not a terrorist because I know pain and I don't want others to feel it. I am not a terrorist because they are all cowards, pretending to be warriors. Most of them would run away before me, without bombs or machine guns.

That day of judgement will come. But in your lifetime. You aren't getting free without accounting.

What I consider to be scary, is playing God and forgetting who we are.
We are people. Humans. We are not a star to burn other humans, we are not a river to drown people, and surely we are not animals to skin people alive.

Terrorists fail to see that they are playing God in their path to satisfy their goals.
Building earth is one thing we should focus on, no matter what. Everybody born on this earth, just got the clearance of God to exist, and held the keys to their own destiny.

[Succubus]

...I'm not a terrorist because I fear a lord. Fear a day of judgement...

Did Ted Bundy / Jeffrey Dahmer have a fear of judgement? Bundy murdered 30+ women, the actual figure is likely much higher, we will never know. Dahmer ate 17 blokes. But while awaiting execution they both became Born Again Christians and confessed their sins. They're in heaven.
 
Now Bill Gates and Warren Oats between them have ~$80 billion in a charity fund dedicated to improving the lives of mostly children in developing countries. And guess what? The two of them are destined to burn in hell for all eternity because they won't kiss Hank's arse. 

I read a lot about Judgement, redemption, salvation, forgiveness, absolution, deliverance, etcetera, et fucking cetera. Nowhere do I see the words fairness or compassion. They aren’t in the fundie vocabulary. Theirs is a binary position, heaven or burn. Are they so totally devoid of imagination that they can't see a problem with this?

I can't find the words to express my contempt for the deranged arseholes, and I mean that!

Edit. Spelling.

[WinterHold]

Most people do not do such acts and are repelled by them. This is true whether or not they believe in a deity.

This type of thing happens because of a love of power over another. And it can happen just as easily for theists as for non-theists. All the theists need is to be convinced the victim deserves their treatment because they don't believe in the 'right' doctrines and that their deity approves. It has happened many times in history and continues to today. Theism isn't a remedy to the lust for power and cruelty.

And this is a wonderful example of why morality has little to do with religion. if your religion told you this type of act was not just approved by God, but demanded of believers, would it suddenly become good? No. So the dictates of a deity are not a valid way of deciding morality.

Morality depends on the person's willingness to follow the code it dictates. Some people walk inside the borders of morality with its different types; some don't.