Why some humans are so evil: double standards and irreligion

[Aoi Magi]

Nope, that'd be the final step, and most people don't go so far. But I do believe you've made yourself vulnerable to being mislead, not because you believe in god, but because you are under the authority of an organized religion.

Ok, so I'm not there yet , but you think the main goal of my faith is to get me to lose my humanity, and I'm being led that way and will eventually get there if I give in? Lol.

This sounds like some weird conspiracy thing to me. And it wouldn't explain the fact that my faith has taught me a very humanistic sense of morality.

Where exactly did I say the words you are putting in my mouth?
Goal of religion isn't to get rid of humanity, it's goal is to make people be submissive to authority.


Regarding your morality based on religion, you've got it the other way around, your choice of religion is based on and conforms with your morality. You weren't born a catholic, you were raised a catholic. The heathens here don't go around raping, murdering people despite not believing in your religion, and you wouldn't either because good people are good irrespective of their religious affiliations.

[Catholic_Lady]

Ok, so I'm not there yet , but you think the main goal of my faith is to get me to lose my humanity, and I'm being led that way and will eventually get there if I give in? Lol.

This sounds like some weird conspiracy thing to me. And it wouldn't explain the fact that my faith has taught me a very humanistic sense of morality.

Where exactly did I say the words you are putting in my mouth?
Goal of religion isn't to get rid of humanity, it's goal is to make people be submissive to authority.


Regarding your morality based on religion, you've got it the other way around, your choice of religion is based on and conforms with your morality. You weren't born a catholic, you were raised a catholic. The heathens here don't go around raping, murdering people despite not believing in your religion, and you wouldn't either because good people are good irrespective of their religious affiliations.

Sorry, you made it sound like losing my humanity would be the final step of/intention of my faith, if I were to go that far.

I suppose you are right about the goal of my faith being to be "submissive to authority." Though that's an interesting way of putting it. Most of us would say that the goal is to strive to live by God's commandments... and I was taught that God commands us to love other people and do good for other people. Because all people have inherent dignity. Nearly all morality revolves around that basic fundamental principle.

Anyway, this whole interaction between you and I started because I told DownBeatDrum that religious ideals arent in and of themselves, inherently bad. It just depends on what the ideals are. Religious ideals can influence a person to do good or they can influence them to do bad, depending on what the religious ideals are... like any other ideals we live our life by. I'm still not sure how our discussion has followed that.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's like those silly FB-type posts asking if we would take part in The PurgeTM if it was a thing. My answer is a categorical "no",

Now wait a minute...let's not be hasty... 

[Whateverist]

Evil people will do evil things but for a good person to do evil takes a strong idea and religion fits the bill.

I never did understand that quote that I keep seeing around here. It doesn't mean religious ideals are, in and of themselves, intrinsically bad. Which is what I think the quote is trying to convey. Obviously any strong idea can influence you do bad things if it's a bad idea lol. And likewise a strong idea can influence you to do good things if it's a good idea. We can't just talk about ideas in isolation as though they are all the same, whether they came from religion or not.

I think it is more that religion is so powerfully motivating that it can over-ride our natural repulsion against killing or torturing a fellow human being.  Conditions of war and nationalist fervor is another such dangerous motivation.

[henryp]

Wally, if what you're saying is true, then why don't we just euthanize people who are often seen as a burden to society as a whole? Such as poor people, severely handicapped people, really sick people, etc? It would certainly be "better for society" in a purely materialistic sort of way. Why do we have so many people dedicating their lives and traveling to the poorest places on earth to help those in need?

Surely there is something in us that desires goodness, even though it is constantly in conflict with selfish desires, it's there. And we have the ability to choose which way we go. Dont you think?

This sounds like some weird conspiracy thing to me. And it wouldn't explain the fact that my faith has taught me a very humanistic sense of morality.

I think sometimes people have impulses or upbringings that truly align their behavior with what is considered good.  But I don't think it's the norm. 

For euthanasia, I think it'll be a tough sell, because we're all going to get old.  Contrast with abortion, where there's no risk of being a baby again.  Poor people have been left to die for all times.  I assume the same goes for handicapped and sick for much of history as well.   

And I think goodness is often in cahoots with selfish desires.  That's again why I think a lot of catholic teachings make sense regardless of catholicism being true.

[Whateverist]

Where exactly did I say the words you are putting in my mouth?  
Goal of religion isn't to get rid of humanity, it's goal is to make people be submissive to authority.


Regarding your morality based on religion, you've got it the other way around, your choice of religion is based on and conforms with your morality. You weren't born a catholic, you were raised a catholic. The heathens here don't go around raping, murdering people despite not believing in your religion, and you wouldn't either because good people are good irrespective of their religious affiliations.

Sorry, you made it sound like losing my humanity would be the final step of/intention of my faith, if I were to go that far.

I suppose you are right about the goal of my faith being to be "submissive to authority." Though that's an interesting way of putting it. Most of us would say that the goal is to strive to live by God's commandments... and I was taught that God commands us to love other people and do good for other people. Because all people have inherent dignity. Nearly all morality revolves around that basic fundamental principle.

Anyway, this whole interaction between you and I started because I told DownBeatDrum that religious ideals arent in and of themselves, inherently bad. It just depends on what the ideals are. Religious ideals can influence a person to do good or they can influence them to do bad, depending on what the religious ideals are... like any other ideals we live our life by. I'm still not sure how our discussion has followed that.

In my view, it isn't that religion inevitably results in a loss of humanity.  It is simply one of the motivating forces which can have that effect.  In the story of Abraham I doubt that sacrificing a son is anything that would otherwise ever cross his mind.  But believing it is God's command and simultaneously believing nothing is more important than pleasing God could bring him to do just that.  

There are plenty of stories of people having psychotic breaks who believe similar things, that Jesus wants you to send your kids on up ahead.  Next thing you know someone has rolled a car full of kids into a lake to drown them.

I guess the question is whether a religious person holds God in such a high regard as to overweigh every other consideration.  If so, then under duress they and their loved ones are in danger.

But it doesn't have to be religion.  Patriotism can also unbalance a person leading them to take extreme measures.

[Catholic_Lady]

Religious ideology, just as any ideology or any value system, can influence a person to do good or to do bad, depending on what the ideology is.

[WinterHold]

[WinterHold]

Those things aren;t unified across all societies.  Some societies have/had no concept of property, and so no concept of theft, for example.  Fear of reprisal couldn't even factor in in those cases, reprisal for what and by whom?  

-and yet they managed not to "take each others stuff": as we would conceive of it.

Long story short...we don;t actually have to whip the shit out of people, or threaten to whip them..to keep them from doing bad shit.  Honestly, that compells them to do bad shit in the first place.  That might go at least a little way to explaining why people have been fucking up so hard particularly since we started believing in religions formed around that very concept.  The man who accepts the doctrine of eternal torment isn't going to bat an eye at a moment of the same.  

You may think that your acceptance of this is the reason that you're not a terrorist, but in truth, it's probably the reason that you're closer than I am to being one.  You are actually describing law and norms, up above, as the employment of terror.  Suggesting that terror is what makes us act right.  You know who else thinks that?  Allah and all his mujahideen.

Every country in the world has prisons, armies and police. They even call it "law enforcement".
There is an official institution for enforcing fear in every country in the world.

If I'm a terrorist for suggesting that "deterrence is caused by fear"; then all armies of the world are terrorists; with the U.S sitting on the throne with lots of atomic, terrorist weapons.

The first operation in the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was officially named "shock and awe"..that's quite terrorist.

---

...I'm not a terrorist because I fear a lord. Fear a day of judgement...

Did Ted Bundy / Jeffrey Dahmer have a fear of judgement? Bundy murdered 30+ women, the actual figure is likely much higher, we will never know. Dahmer ate 17 blokes. But while awaiting execution they both became Born Again Christians and confessed their sins. They're in heaven.
 
Now Bill Gates and Warren Oats between them have ~$80 billion in a charity fund dedicated to improving the lives of mostly children in developing countries. And guess what? The two of them are destined to burn in hell for all eternity because they won't kiss Hank's arse. 

I read a lot about Judgement, redemption, salvation, forgiveness, absolution, deliverance, etcetera, et fucking cetera. Nowhere do I see the words fairness or compassion. They aren’t in the fundie vocabulary. Theirs is a binary position, heaven or burn. Are they so totally devoid of imagination that they can't see a problem with this?

I can't find the words to express my contempt for the deranged arseholes, and I mean that!

Edit. Spelling.

It's a bad turn for the Christian faith to have the confession concept.
All humans are capable of lying to save their skins; or at least save their public image.

The same goes with Bill Gates and his phony charity work. But one thing I stress on: Islam has different standards for judgement, unlike Christianity and other faiths.

[Succubus]

The same goes with Bill Gates and his phony charity work. But one thing I stress on: Islam has different standards for judgement, unlike Christianity and other faiths.

Arsehole!