God does not determine right and wrong

[Minimalist]

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)
God is something of a scumbag if you ask me.

So an army which sneaks up behind an innocent wandering nation of vagabonds and ex slaves, to kill the elderly and vulnerable families at the rear of the procession, is nice and should be patted by God?

Woe.
[/quote]

Congratulations for proving the point, asshole!

[Chad32]

I imagine a world where rape and murder were morally good would be a very very different world. Everything about human nature and how this world works points to those things being morally wrong.

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Basically it makes no sense for God to declare rape/murder morally good, considering the world He has set up and the way He created us. They are contrary to natural law.

And yet he has commanded both of those things from time to time in the bible. And he's still considered morally good.

[polymath257]

The problem I have in saying that whatever God wants is automatically moral is the number of people who think God is talking to them and think He is telling them to kill their kids.

if God is the standard, and if you really believe God is talking to you, then you *have* to do what the voice in your head says.

[LadyForCamus]

I think I’d prefer a Christian simply dismissing the OT together, rather these disgusting rape and infanticide apologetics.

[SteveII]

I found this in A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.

To religious people: If god declared that rape and murder were morally acceptable, would that make them so? 

Most of you would probably say that god would not say such a thing. But why not? Presumably because god would have some reason for not making such a declaration. But this means that there is some reason for finding rape and murder to be morally wrong. In which case, why can't we appeal to reason directly and remove god from the discussion?

The only conclusion you get from that line of reasoning is that some level of morality can be arrived at by reason. No one would argue with that. I would also agree with your thread title. It is not God that determines right and wrong (which would be subjective morality), it is God's nature that determines right and wrong. His nature is essentially good (as in could not have been any other way) and omniscience entails logical ordering of thoughts. So, no surprise that Christian morality matches up with a significant amount of reasoned morality.

So why can't we appeal to reason directly? Because it is subjective and imperfect. Example: abortion. There are atheists who feel strongly on both sides of the issue. Why? If Krauss' premise was true, then we should be able to reason to a moral conclusion good for all time. However, the fact that most moral questions that we can talk about today has undergone drastic changes over the last 2500 years, it just illustrates the subjective nature of such inquires. And who knows what kind of moral evolution we will see in the next 2500 years.

God's commands, revealed truths about humanity--outlining purpose and value, the teachings of Jesus, and the need for redemption offers additional pertinent information not available through reasoning alone. And that is why having God in the discussion makes a difference. Notice that you don't actually have to believe in God to agree with this point.

[Banned]

So an army which sneaks up behind an innocent wandering nation of vagabonds and ex slaves, to kill the elderly and vulnerable families at the rear of the procession, is nice and should be patted by God?

Woe.

So...ordering babies murdered in retaliation is okay then?  You’re right. Our depraved, barbaric society really should be turning to the Bible for moral salvation. 😏

So keeping the babies and killing their evil parents, leaving the children to grow up and face the nation which killed their parents, will ensure that they will grow up balanced, and somehow the laws of inheritance, which would cause those adopted to follow in the same Satanic path as their parents, will vanish?

Or perhaps we should just keep the whole criminal nation alive, to repeat the most horrific crimes on earth, as well as butcher THEMSELVES and their own children out of existence, as other nations had already done?

Their own children were destined to be sacrificed, or to grow up exactly as the parents. Not just that, but their offspring would be tortured and killed through their pagan rituals. Their offspring were selected and trained even during gestation to serve and honor Satan, to commit the worst sins known to mankind, if murdering innocent strangers is not enough to tip the scales of justice?

The same hardening of hearts, the desensitizing to moral law is taking place in your own nation on a large scale - calling evil good and good evil, having no discernment, being judgmental and blasphemous.

[Chad32]

I think I’d prefer a Christian simply dismissing the OT together, rather these disgusting rape and infanticide apologetics.

Ignoring the OT is a bit dishonest, though. Yeah, I prefer the nicer christians too, but you can't say that Jesus and Yahweh are the exact same person, and then say the OT should be ignored.

[Banned]

Basically it makes no sense for God to declare rape/murder morally good, considering the world He has set up and the way He created us. They are contrary to natural law.

And yet he has commanded both of those things from time to time in the bible. And he's still considered morally good.

Oh really, all you need to do now is show the evidence from the Bible, without your slant on it.

[Catholic_Lady]

I think I’d prefer a Christian simply dismissing the OT together, rather these disgusting rape and infanticide apologetics.

Ignoring the OT is a bit dishonest, though. Yeah, I prefer the nicer christians too, but you can't say that Jesus and Yahweh are the exact same person, and then say the OT should be ignored.

It's not about "ignoring the OT." It's about recognizing that it was written thousands and thousands of years ago, for the people of the time, in the context of those times. It's also about recognizing it's allegorical style of writing. Jesus actually existed and cleared up things that were otherwise misunderstood. Why do you think He was so controversial among the Jews of the time? This has been explained many times.

[Whateverist]

New studies reveal that God actually does determine right and wrong. In fact, He likes to mix it up from day to day and because He is so omni-everything we never notice when He switches right and wrong. Apparently rape was the highest good yesterday but is frowned upon today. We just can't remember because -you know- the big Guy is jerking our strings.