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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
February 9, 2018 at 12:48 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2018 at 12:56 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The same thing it means in any other context. That there are moral statements that refer to facts..and if those facts are true..then the moral statements are as well. It's not really a complicated concept...but it often seems to be due to the excessive amount of baggage we've attached to it, and the vast and pernicious misapprehensions that we collectively hold regarding the concept itself.
For example..the running argument on these boards between atheists and theists commonly reduces to theists asserting that there can be no moral facts in the absence of their god. On the other side of the aisle, we have the insistence that differences of opinion somehow make any such facts non-existent.
Both positions are wrong, because both assertions are an irrelevance to any objective morality. Nevertheless, the argument stretches on under it's own steam never approaching the subject that the disagreement purportedly addresses. It exists solely as a proxy for another disagreement.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
February 9, 2018 at 6:23 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2018 at 6:24 pm by polymath257.)
OK, so is there a way to establish the truth of a moral statement? Or even the falsity of one? Seems that such would be required for them to have a meaningful truth value.
In the sciences, there is a way to establish the falsity of a proposition: observation contradicting the proposition.
In math, there is a way of establishing truth: proof from assumed axioms.
What is the method for moral statements?
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
February 9, 2018 at 7:17 pm
(This post was last modified: February 9, 2018 at 7:22 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(February 9, 2018 at 6:23 pm)polymath257 Wrote: OK, so is there a way to establish the truth of a moral statement? Or even the falsity of one? Seems that such would be required for them to have a meaningful truth value. Why wouldn't there be?
Quote:In the sciences, there is a way to establish the falsity of a proposition: observation contradicting the proposition.
In math, there is a way of establishing truth: proof from assumed axioms.
What is the method for moral statements?
Again, you're looking for something complicated when it's exactly the same. Take your own idea from earlier, human wellbeing. How would you move from that axiom to a conclusion?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
February 12, 2018 at 5:22 pm
(January 26, 2018 at 11:25 pm)Alexmahone Wrote: I found this in A Universe from Nothing by Lawrence Krauss.
To religious people: If god declared that rape and murder were morally acceptable, would that make them so?
Most of you would probably say that god would not say such a thing. But why not? Presumably because god would have some reason for not making such a declaration. But this means that there is some reason for finding rape and murder to be morally wrong. In which case, why can't we appeal to reason directly and remove god from the discussion?
Believe that "Stone him" would be the accurate term to a rapist. Either that or idk...
But we are aware of this "judgement" problem that Men (human) people had.
God does judge, but righteously, by the fruits of men (works, other).
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RE: God does not determine right and wrong
February 12, 2018 at 7:14 pm
(This post was last modified: February 12, 2018 at 7:15 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
"God" has judgement problems that appear to be about as poorly thought out as any of mans..and...informatively, accord exactly with whatever primitive goatfucker is making god claims at any given time.
Why, do you reckon, that might be?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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