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(February 16, 2018 at 5:00 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: It's all good. To recap it, I think dumb guns should be phased out in favor of smart guns which only fire for the legal owner who must pass background checks for both criminality and mental soundness. It's not a "cure", but I think it addresses several different issues which each go into America's inordinate firearms death rate.
I would add a periodical checkup to maintain the right to own guns.
If you fail those, your weapons are either confiscated or exchanged for their market value.
If you don't show up for the check up, your weapons will be confiscated.
Of course, all this would require funding that's currently not existent.
Yes, I'd mentioned a regular review upthread, in Post #182. And confiscation or buyback, depending on the circumstances of the recertification, is obviously necessary to be the teeth in any such law. I'd limit confiscation to instances where the permit-holder never showed up, myself; but those are details that can be negotiated and adjusted as any such program might unfold.
February 16, 2018 at 8:20 pm (This post was last modified: February 16, 2018 at 8:28 pm by Wyrd of Gawd.)
(February 16, 2018 at 11:12 am)Divinity Wrote: I find that most gun nuts don't want discussion. Especially about gun control. So they try to steer the conversation to vague ideas so as to distract everyone from the issue long enough, hoping their politicians will be able to brave through public opinion until their next donation from the NRA.
There's supposed to be about 5 million people in the NRA so unless the NRA gets its money from lottery winnings those people are funding the political contributions. It seems to be an effective grass roots organization that looks out for its members.
(February 16, 2018 at 1:11 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: For those who say that the gun laws aren't the problem.
Listen to this logic. You can't buy alcohol until you are 21 in the USA but somehow you can buy a semi automatic rifle at 19, the best gun laws in the world.
Listen to this: You can't buy alcohol until you are 21 in the USA but you can join the military and blow the hell out of people in foreign lands using all kinds of weapons when you are 18 or 19.
February 16, 2018 at 8:31 pm (This post was last modified: February 16, 2018 at 8:41 pm by notimportant1234.)
(February 16, 2018 at 4:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(February 16, 2018 at 3:27 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: Strawmanning you how? You strawmanned me by saying that I proposed stricter laws as the ultimate solution wich I didn't, I just proposed to work with the laws because it is the fastest thing you can change but I didn't say to not work on the other variables, you just assumed that.
No, it wasn't an assumption. You actually wrote "quick solution" ... and only mentioned stricter laws.
Sorry I can't read your mind, and sorry for taking your words at face-value.
(February 16, 2018 at 3:29 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: The point that a semi-automatic rifle is deadlier than a hand gun, that is a fact.
At seventy-five feet, there's little if any difference.
Does quick solution mean the only one ? I think it doesn't.
But if you can think of something that can be done faster I'm ready to listen. But I supposed that you were misslead because I sayed that people that where adressing other variables to not post anymore if they can't say a solution, I sayed that because many of them were like "guns don't kill people , people kill people " in order to deflect the problem and keep their precious guns.
(February 16, 2018 at 8:20 pm)Wyrd of Gawd Wrote:
(February 16, 2018 at 11:12 am)Divinity Wrote: I find that most gun nuts don't want discussion. Especially about gun control. So they try to steer the conversation to vague ideas so as to distract everyone from the issue long enough, hoping their politicians will be able to brave through public opinion until their next donation from the NRA.
There's supposed to be about 5 million people in the NRA so unless the NRA gets its money from lottery winnings those people are funding the political contributions. It seems to be an effective grass roots organization that looks out for its members.
(February 16, 2018 at 1:11 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: For those who say that the gun laws aren't the problem.
Listen to this logic. You can't buy alcohol until you are 21 in the USA but somehow you can buy a semi automatic rifle at 19, the best gun laws in the world.
Listen to this: You can't buy alcohol until you are 21 in the USA but you can join the military and blow the hell out of people in foreign lands using all kinds of weapons when you are 18 or 19.
How does this refute my argument ?
Edit: Sorry I missinterpreted the post.
(February 16, 2018 at 3:03 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(February 16, 2018 at 1:56 pm)Aegon Wrote: Further legislation on access to firearms isn't going to (and isn't supposed to) stop murder or violent crime. Just lower the ease with which this type of violent crime can be committed and lower the rate at which they occur. Definitely is not the ultimate solution for why kids want to kill all their classmates.
Of course not. I just get frustrated when sensible voices get drowned out.
(February 16, 2018 at 1:56 pm)Aegon Wrote: I didn't mean to direct that second post at you. Forums feature to prevent double posting hooked them together.
No sweat, apologies for my misreading you.
(February 16, 2018 at 12:19 pm)Divinity Wrote: If you're not defending guns, okay then. Thanks for clarification. However, those that present those types of sentiments tend to prefer to deflect the issue without providing any solutions. They'll cry about mental health, they'll cry about video games, they'll cry about movies, anything to deflect from guns--when guns are definitely a part of the problem. I'm so sick of hearing about these mass shootings. My heart was SHATTERED when I heard about the Sandy Hook shootings. Fuck, my heart was shattered when I heard about Columbine. But Sandy Hook was an absolute breaking point. These were little kids that got killed, little kids and their teachers. Just going about their day. Just like the people in Aurora, the people at the Pulse Night Club, and the people in Las Vegas. It frustrates me to no end that we refuse to do fuck all about it. And I'm sick of it. We live in a country where you can't take a fucking water bottle on an airplane. You can't possess a certain amount of a goddamn plant without being locked up in jail for life. But these kids get killed... and our politicians do nothing more than send their fucking thoughts and prayers. We have an entire organization dedicated to not just making sure that citizens can own guns, but to make sure there is ZERO burden on anyone wanting to buy any gun they want (unless it's a Smart gun, of course). These kids are 14-15 years old. Not even old enough to drive yet. These are kids born after 9/11. Kids who woke up, went to school, and expected to come home that day. They probably had plans for the weekend. Maybe even for Valentine's Day. The presents they got from last Christmas are still pretty new. They probably had dreams of going to college, making something of their life. They had friends, parents, siblings. Now their parents have to mourn their kids. And honestly it isn't any better when it's adults being shot either. Those are parents, teachers, friends, brothers, sisters... Kids aren't where I want to draw the line. Kids are just past the line. Way past acceptable. I'm frustrated, and I'm tired, and I want us to fucking do something. I'm tired of doing nothing. Nothing isn't working.
Quote:Believe me -- I'm tired of this conversation, too. We're in complete agreement there. This conversation should not be happening in a civilized society, especially after so many recurrences.
I'd like to see mandatory smart guns -- if you're manufacturing guns, they must by law be biometrically keyed to the purchaser, who must pass criminal and mental-health background checks upon purchase, and at regular, stipulated intervals after that.
Coupled with that, I'd like to see a sunset law on dumb guns forbidding their transfer in any form -- gift, resale, or loaning -- except a government buyback upon the owner's death, whereupon it would be destroyed.
I think such a program would work to reduce not only the number of these incidents, but also work to counter our firearms death rate as a whole, because so many murders here arise from guns which don't belong to the shooter.
(February 16, 2018 at 12:52 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: I skipped this one sorry. It's not about a cure for all , this is a topic about SHOOTINGS , the best way to reduce SHOOTINGS is to gave stricter gun laws.
It's not my fault that you and more guys on this topic went off topic to human condition and violence , wich are things that are beeing taclked for a long long time but somehow you will solve the problem in a few days , but please teach me master.
If you'd like a decent discussion, you can shitcan the sarcasm, and strawmanning. Let me know when you're ready for that.
There's no way the Congress Critters will fund a program to buy back hundreds of millions of guns and to destroy them. The 1%'ers will be crying like babies about the tax increase.
The more we find out about Cruz (particularly shooting the chickens and all the police calls in the last 2 years involving him) the more I'm reminded of the young Jeffrey Dahmer.
[shudder]
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
February 16, 2018 at 8:51 pm (This post was last modified: February 16, 2018 at 8:53 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(February 16, 2018 at 8:31 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote:
(February 16, 2018 at 4:20 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: No, it wasn't an assumption. You actually wrote "quick solution" ... and only mentioned stricter laws.
Sorry I can't read your mind, and sorry for taking your words at face-value.
At seventy-five feet, there's little if any difference.
Does quick solution mean the only one ? I think it doesn't.
As I said, forgive me for not being psychic. You mentioned one "quick solution". If you had something more in mind, perhaps you should have laid it out? Just a thought.
(February 16, 2018 at 8:31 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: But if you can think of something that can be done faster I'm ready to listen. But I supposed that you were misslead because I sayed that people that where adressing other variables to not post anymore if they can't say a solution, I sayed that because many of them were like "guns don't kill people , people kill people " in order to deflect the problem and keep their precious guns.
I've already posted my own thoughts on possible ways to address this issue. You can read them upthread or not, as you see fit.
Also, as I've noted upthread, I'm not a gun-owner at all. Guns aren't "precious" to me, your snark aside.
(February 15, 2018 at 4:01 pm)Brian37 Wrote: Sadly yes. 20 kids and 6 teachers in a school, and they gun worshipers care less about those kids than having a better vetting system to prevent these types of events.
I think that perhaps you may be more successful, if you quit slandering and straw manning people, and instead present a logical and reasonable solution. You know; with details and expected results type of stuff.
Quit speaking for other people, which you are not good at, and give them something good to listen too. That is, if you really care about those kids and this isn't just more of your rhetoric and nonsense.
No sorry, the companies that produce firearms ARE NOT doing enough to prevent their products from getting into the wrong hands. THEY are like any other business. They answer to the shareholders and their goal is to expand the market and sell more. THAT is not slander, that is a fact of business. YOU HAVE NO right getting angry at me for pointing out that fact. Our climate is such that we make way too many and they are too easy to get. NO I AM NOT SORRY, firearm makers DESERVE THE CONDEMNATION.
17 highschool kids are dead, that is not rhetoric, that is a fact.
The real slander is coming from the right, claiming any desire for better vetting, and making less is some call for a fascist state. THAT is the real slander.
(February 16, 2018 at 8:51 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(February 16, 2018 at 8:31 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: Does quick solution mean the only one ? I think it doesn't.
As I said, forgive me for not being psychic. You mentioned one "quick solution". If you had something more in mind, perhaps you should have laid it out? Just a thought.
(February 16, 2018 at 8:31 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: But if you can think of something that can be done faster I'm ready to listen. But I supposed that you were misslead because I sayed that people that where adressing other variables to not post anymore if they can't say a solution, I sayed that because many of them were like "guns don't kill people , people kill people " in order to deflect the problem and keep their precious guns.
I've already posted my own thoughts on possible ways to address this issue. You can read them upthread or not, as you see fit.
Also, as I've noted upthread, I'm not a gun-owner at all. Guns aren't "precious" to me, your snark aside.
1. I sayed "a quick solution" and than law because it seems the quickest , also in the next post i sayed that this should be aproached from low to hight difficulty.
2. Your thoughts are also about law. And I wasn't reffering to you , I just explained why I tryed to shut people down.
February 16, 2018 at 9:03 pm (This post was last modified: February 16, 2018 at 9:14 pm by Amarok.)
Quote:I think that perhaps you may be more successful, if you quit slandering and straw manning people, and instead present a logical and reasonable solution. You know; with details and expected results type of stuff.
Their Road goes aain telling us were not allowed to judge people their own actions a rhetoric . And doing so is "slander " Well here's a novel idea stop being an asshole people likely stop calling you one. And you can't reason with those who have no motivation to listen to reason .
Quote:Quit speaking for other people, which you are not good at, and give them something good to listen too. That is, if you really care about those kids and this isn't just more of your rhetoric and nonsense.
Speaking based on how people act and what they say . Is not speaking for people it's using their own actions to hang them . And who gives a fuck if they like what we say . If it's true it's true . Fuck their snowflake need to be not have their feelings hurt when people are dying .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
