Before We Discuss Whether God Exists, I Have A Question

[Jenny A]

I have over the years gotten  tired of discussng whether there is a god, with well meaning relatives.  I have a new program.  I say,

I would like to (1) believe in god, if god exists; and  (2) to not believe in god, if God does not exist.  Can you say the same?  If the answer is "no,"  I refuse to discuss the matter as we have left the realm of what is in favor of we would like to be.  

I've tried this just three times now. The answer has never been flat out no at least not initially.  Instead, the responses have been:  but you are trying to take away my faith; Pascal's Wager; and I just know he does.  To which I respond, that unless you are willing to consider the possibility there is no god, than there is no point in the dicussion.   It isn't perfect, but so far this works better than anything I've tried yet.

How about this... I present evidence that God exists and you present evidence that a God does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.

Nope. Unless you can say that you want to believe there is no god if there isn't one, and believe in one if there is then there's no point in discussing it. If you really can truthful say that, then we can talk evidence and standard of proof.

But--- this idea is my way of dealing with people close to me who want to convert me because they love me, and whom I might hurt by debate. Consequently, it is meant to end discussion, as most theists really really want there to be a god.

I'll undoubtedly gone on shooting down purported proofs of god on this forum or elsewhere.

[Huggy Bear]

Huggy, you have no evidence that a god exists, but go ahead.  Make a fool out of yourself for another twenty pages.  Why stop now?

Keep on thinking that sweetheart.

---

How about this... I present evidence that God exists and you present evidence that a God does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.

Nope.  Unless you can say that you want to believe there is no god if there isn't one, and believe in one if there is then there's no point in discussing it.  If you really can truthful say that,  then we can talk evidence and standard of proof.

But--- this idea is my way of dealing with people close to me who want to convert me because they love me, and whom I might hurt by debate.  Consequently, it is meant to end discussion, as most theists really really want there to be a god.  

I'll undoubtedly gone on shooting down purported proofs of god on this forum or elsewhere.

What does my belief have do with whether a God exists or not? What I propose is to measure evidence, for and against. If you can prove to me a God does not exist, then sure I'll no longer believe, but If I can prove to you that a God does exist, could you say you'd accept him?

[Jenny A]

Huggy, you have no evidence that a god exists, but go ahead.  Make a fool out of yourself for another twenty pages.  Why stop now?

Keep on thinking that sweetheart.

---

Nope.  Unless you can say that you want to believe there is no god if there isn't one, and believe in one if there is then there's no point in discussing it.  If you really can truthful say that,  then we can talk evidence and standard of proof.

But--- this idea is my way of dealing with people close to me who want to convert me because they love me, and whom I might hurt by debate.  Consequently, it is meant to end discussion, as most theists really really want there to be a god.  

I'll undoubtedly gone on shooting down purported proofs of god on this forum or elsewhere.

What does my belief have do with whether a God exists or not? What I propose is to measure evidence, for and against. If you can prove to me a God does not exist, then sure I'll no longer believe, but If I can prove to you that a God does exist, could you say you'd accept him?

Listen carefully. I am only willing to debate relatives who have a genuinely open mind. Having an open mind is not about what you believe. It's about whether you want to believe what is factually true, or even most likely to be true and not wanting to believe things that are false or very likely to be false. My relatives, like many other theists have an open mind about many things, but not god. In the case of god they make a virtue out of believing despite the evidence.

So I ask again, if in fact there is no god or god turns out to be very unlikely, do you want not to believe in god?

[Minimalist]

How about this... I present evidence that God exists and you present evidence that a God does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.

You have nothing to prove that any god exists, Hugster and, by definition we could never produce evidence for the non-existence of a god that does not exist in the first place.

Unhappily for you our best evidence is the repeated failure of theists to demonstrate any validity to their childish beliefs.  By all means, feel free to present some if you dare.


But if it includes your stupid fucking bible you already know how this will end.

[Jenny A]

Huggy, you have no evidence that a god exists, but go ahead.  Make a fool out of yourself for another twenty pages.  Why stop now?

Keep on thinking that sweetheart.

---

Nope.  Unless you can say that you want to believe there is no god if there isn't one, and believe in one if there is then there's no point in discussing it.  If you really can truthful say that,  then we can talk evidence and standard of proof.

But--- this idea is my way of dealing with people close to me who want to convert me because they love me, and whom I might hurt by debate.  Consequently, it is meant to end discussion, as most theists really really want there to be a god.  

I'll undoubtedly gone on shooting down purported proofs of god on this forum or elsewhere.

What does my belief have do with whether a God exists or not? What I propose is to measure evidence, for and against. If you can prove to me a God does not exist, then sure I'll no longer believe, but If I can prove to you that a God does exist, could you say you'd accept him?

Yes, if there is a proponderence of evidence that a god (any god yours or someone elses) most likely exists, then I certainly want to believe in that god. I might not want to worship it though.

What you want to believe blinds you. It causes you to be unable to assess evidence. Otherwise, you would not want to believe in god if there isn't one, or one is unlikely. Why else is that simple assertion so very hard for you?

---

Say it: I Huggy, I do not want to believe in God, if God does not exist.

[possibletarian]

The god of gods has just revealed herself to me.

Her name is Gertrude Gobshyte, She created all that there is, and intended mankind to be deceived by stories of other gods and to be completely convinced of them, even believing there is proof for their existence.

Huggy can you offer any evidence at all that would disprove 'Gertrude' ?

[Cecelia]

How about this... I present evidence that God exists and you present evidence that a God does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.

How about this... I present evidence that Odin exists and you present evidence that Odin does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.

Then we'll repeat that for every other god except the Christian God.  We'll see how you go about obtaining evidence against the existence of these other gods.

[Jenny A]

The god of gods has just revealed herself to me.

Her name is Gertrude Gobshyte, She created all that there is, and intended mankind to be deceived by stories of other gods and to be completely convinced of them, even believing there is proof for their existence.

Huggy can you offer any evidence at all that would disprove 'Gertrude' ?

Indeed. This is why what you want to believe matters in determining what is the truth. Unless you are interested in the truth, you can find a way to believe anything.

[possibletarian]

How about this... I present evidence that God exists and you present evidence that a God does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.

How about this... I present evidence that Odin exists and you present evidence that Odin does not exist and we'll judge based on who has the most evidence for and against.



Then we'll repeat that for every other god except the Christian God.  We'll see how you go about obtaining evidence against the existence of these other gods.

The god of gods has just revealed herself to me.

Her name is Gertrude Gobshyte, She created all that there is, and intended mankind to be deceived by stories of other gods and to be completely convinced of them, even believing there is proof for their existence.

Huggy can you offer any evidence at all that would disprove 'Gertrude' ?

Indeed. This is why what you want to believe matters in determining what is the truth. Unless you are interested in the truth, you can find away to believe anything.

It has always amused me that often when believers cry 'show me evidence against my god' did not show the same courtesy to other claimed deities before dismissing them out of hand.

[Jenny A]

I meant this thread as a suggestion for atheists talking to loved ones. It's amusing to me that it bothers theists who can't simply say that they would rather not believe in god if there is no god.

Try it with anything else.

I'd rather not believe in unicorns if there are no unicorns.

I'd rather not believe homosexuality is biological if it is a choice.

I'd rather not believe capitalism is the best economic system if it isn't.

I'd rather not believe my father is my biological father is he isn't.

I'd rather not believe 1 + 1 is 3, if it isn't.

I'd rather not believe red wine is good for you if it isn't.

I'd rather not believe in the big bang if it isn't true.

I'd rather not believe in cottage cheese if it doesn't exist.

Why is it so hard to put god into one of these obviously rational sentences?