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Current time: September 22, 2019, 6:31 pm

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Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
#31
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
Quote:I am pretty tired so I didn't want to adress the topic with a proper argument
No pressure 




Quote:. You seem to be against emotions and I can't understand why
Nope i'm simply against them overriding reason evidence etc . I'm against biasing the mind . Allowing us to invent absurd excuses (like accepting that a god would make the earth look old or that a god would make the earth young and the rest of the universe old ) . I'm against them becoming the balm of perpetual correctness . And i'm definitely against people like Beta pretending his own irrationality can be excused by projecting people's acceptance of facts  as equally biased and ideologically motivated. 


Quote:. Where would be the fun withouth emotions ? 

This assumes fun relies on emotions . but as i said i'm not against them 


Quote:How would we feel withouth feelings.
See above
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#32
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
(March 15, 2018 at 7:02 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: I must disagree . To steal Plato's analogy i think the horses are logic and reason pulling us towards the green pastures and water  of truth . And the driver is emotion filled with fear that his preferences will not be found there .So he struggles against the reins desperate to not go to the truth. Because his perspective that joy and good must look like his delusions . But he will never find happiness in this struggle. He will simply grow exhausted and be miserable . As it is with accepting comforting lies over just letting the truth flow or journeying toward it . 

As for the idea of gain and loss . Having a false idea is no triumph it's standing on a landfill hill in your tighty whities holding a broomstick high like your some form of hero while people laugh at you . Being rid  from such falsehoods is coming down from the hill putting some pants on and putting down the broom . How can that not be a gain ?

Wow. I can see your perspective there, and it's quite interesting. You see the charioteer as the most able to influence the chariot because he has ahold of the horses with bits in their mouths.

In concept, you seem to agree with Plato somewhat. Where you part from him is that you view logic as the most powerful part of human nature. At a cursory glance, I'd have to side with Plato and say that emotions are the strongest, though. Think of it in terms of teenagers. At the age of 15, it is most logical for you to do well in school and set yourself up for a comfortable future. But when you are a teen, you have a lot of lust (which is one of the horses)... ie you'd rather spend the class period flirting with Maggie Henderson than listening to the teacher lecture about history. If you want to do what is wise, you will rein in the desirous horse and direct your attention to the class material.

Your drive to flirt with Maggie is strong. Your drive to pay attention to the history lesson is weak. Wouldn't you say? That's the point Plato is trying to make.
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#33
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
(March 15, 2018 at 4:27 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: It is irrational to allow their heart to override their heads . Reality is it's own reward and falsehoods only get in the way of true happiness . Beta is desperately to drag us down into the pit he's dug himself . And excuse himself of his own faults by pretending all share them . Thou this is an interesting subject even without religious connotation as it pertains to so many ideas . But really that's my overall opinion on the matter .


So you're playing favorites, your head over your heart.  It may be irrational to allow the heart to override the head, but isn't it also heartless to let the head boss it around?

(March 15, 2018 at 6:05 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote: Over the entrance to his academy, Plato had a sign which read, "Let no one ignorant of geometry pass through these gates." I think it is important to consider things like mathematics when we compare logic to emotion. Math is purely logical. That's pretty clear, isn't it? Math doesn't allow for one's feelings to enter into its processes. Nobody gets emotional over an equation... even word problems... we don't really care about the contents of the word problem, we just look for the logically relevant parts.

In the same way, as Khem pointed out earlier, logic attempts to afford us a vision of the world unobscured by the fog of our emotions.

I've had my mind changed by logical arguments. The question is: were these arguments really appealing to my logical sense?-- or were they merely playing on my emotional affinity for the conclusion? After some reflection, I would have to say the former, at least in most cases that come to mind.

I short, attempting to be logical is to try to bring mathematical precision into one's assessment of the world. It is putting the emotional sense in check.

What makes Alpha's statement so powerful is that, deep down, we trust our hearts more. We want our emotions to be right. When logic confirms what we intuit emotionally, we experience a sense of triumph. When logic disproves something in which we have an emotional investment, we experience a sense of loss.

So, yes, we are essentially emotional beings. Emotion is a great force within us and makes up more of who we are than our logical selves. I'd like to mention Plato again, because he was quite aware of this aspect in human beings. In his allegory of the chariot, he likened the human psyche to a chariot. The two horses of the chariot represent desire and emotion. The charioteer represents logic. To Plato, a wise individual is one who's logical part learns how to steer the tempramental horses effectively. Embedded in Plato's allegory is the notion that our emotion and desire are far stronger in us than logic and reason. Logic cannot power the chariot into forward motion like desire and emotion can. But, nonetheless, unless our desire and emotion is "reined in" and "kept on a path" our lives will utterly lack direction and easily stray off course. So it is with the pursuit of truth.


I wonder if, as atheists, we favor the head over the heart as the only sort of transcendence available to us.  No spirit body, no heaven, no reincarnation but we can ascend to the high perch of reason and from there look back and judge our lowly animal nature.  Me, I'm a romantic.  I embrace my mammal nature which just so happens in our case to allow for a capacity to reason.  Reason is a good thing but not the best thing IMHO.  I'd prefer my transcendence to come by way of inspired flights of poesy than dull, plodding steps of logic.  Life is a dance, not a word problem.

(March 15, 2018 at 6:31 pm)notimportant1234 Wrote: In the matter of loving sweets, what is there to folow other than the heart?


Just remember to floss and brush regularly, and mind your blood sugar.
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#34
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
(March 15, 2018 at 7:25 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(March 15, 2018 at 7:02 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: I must disagree . To steal Plato's analogy i think the horses are logic and reason pulling us towards the green pastures and water  of truth . And the driver is emotion filled with fear that his preferences will not be found there .So he struggles against the reins desperate to not go to the truth. Because his perspective that joy and good must look like his delusions . But he will never find happiness in this struggle. He will simply grow exhausted and be miserable . As it is with accepting comforting lies over just letting the truth flow or journeying toward it . 

As for the idea of gain and loss . Having a false idea is no triumph it's standing on a landfill hill in your tighty whities holding a broomstick high like your some form of hero while people laugh at you . Being rid  from such falsehoods is coming down from the hill putting some pants on and putting down the broom . How can that not be a gain ?

Wow. I can see your perspective there, and it's quite interesting. You see the charioteer as the most able to influence the chariot because he has ahold of the horses with bits in their mouths.

In concept, you seem to agree with Plato somewhat. Where you part from him is that you view logic as the most powerful part of human nature. At a cursory glance, I'd have to side with Plato and say that emotions are the strongest, though. Think of it in terms of teenagers. At the age of 15, it is most logical for you to do well in school and set yourself up for a comfortable future. But when you are a teen, you have a lot of lust (which is one of the horses)... ie you'd rather spend the class period flirting with Maggie Henderson than listening to the teacher lecture about history. If you want to do what is wise, you will rein in the desirous horse and direct your attention to the class material.

Your drive to flirt with Maggie is strong. Your drive to pay attention to the history lesson is weak. Wouldn't you say? That's the point Plato is trying to make.
Consider the teenager again . On one hand the horses are tugging him toward his lessons . While the driver in  his lust is  motivated to his comfortable deception and tugs the reins with all his might . One will lead to success and ultimately true happiness if he listens to the horses . While one will convince him to avoid the truth for the pleasures of sex with often dire results . Likely ending in misery and a lack of real fulfillment . I choose the former . And the results that followed a good career and a loving relationship with two women . Many others i knew choose the later and now they are gone in a haze unemployment , Broken families , Suicide , And drugs .

Quote:So you're playing favorites, your head over your heart.  It may be irrational to allow the heart to override the head, but isn't it also heartless to let the head boss it around?
Allowing your heart to override your head can be just as heartless if you don't consider the consequences .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#35
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
(March 15, 2018 at 8:03 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Consider the teenager again . On one hand the horses are tugging him toward his lessons . While the driver in  his lust is  motivated to his comfortable deception and tugs the reins with all his might . One will lead to success and ultimately true happiness if he listens to the horses . While one will convince him to avoid the truth for the pleasures of sex with often dire results . Likely ending in misery and a lack of real fulfillment . I choose the former . And the results that followed a good career and a loving relationship with two women . Many others i knew choose the later and now they are gone in a haze unemployment , Broken families , Suicide , And drugs .

You agree with Plato more than you disagree with him. You are merely reversing the roles of charioteer and horse.

The reason (I think) that Plato used horses as a metaphor for the emotional and desirous portions of the human psyche is because he recognized that humans are (for the most part) animalistic in nature. We have a few attributes which separate us from the rest of the animal kingdom. One of them is a capacity for logic. Plato's choice makes sense in this regard. Appetite and emotion are traits we share with other members of the animal kingdom, so they are represented by animals. Logic is distinctly human, so its representative in the metaphor is a human being.

If you put an especially profound passage from the Republic on the same page as a picture of boobs, one of the items would draw your attention whether you wanted it to or not. Which item would that be? That's the point that Plato was trying to make.
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#36
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
(March 15, 2018 at 8:31 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(March 15, 2018 at 8:03 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: Consider the teenager again . On one hand the horses are tugging him toward his lessons . While the driver in  his lust is  motivated to his comfortable deception and tugs the reins with all his might . One will lead to success and ultimately true happiness if he listens to the horses . While one will convince him to avoid the truth for the pleasures of sex with often dire results . Likely ending in misery and a lack of real fulfillment . I choose the former . And the results that followed a good career and a loving relationship with two women . Many others i knew choose the later and now they are gone in a haze unemployment , Broken families , Suicide , And drugs .

You agree with Plato more than you disagree with him. You are merely reversing the roles of charioteer and horse.

The reason (I think) that Plato used horses as a metaphor for the emotional and desirous portions of the human psyche is because he recognized that humans are (for the most part) animalistic in nature. We have a few attributes which separate us from the rest of the animal kingdom. One of them is a capacity for logic. Plato's choice makes sense in this regard. Appetite and emotion are traits we share with other members of the animal kingdom, so they are represented by animals. Logic is distinctly human, so its representative in the metaphor is a human being.

If you put an especially profound passage from the Republic on the same page as a picture of boobs, one of the items would draw your attention whether you wanted it to or not. Which item would that be? That's the point that Plato was trying to make.
I'll grant you the majority of this. But i find this metaphor far to easy to hijack to other conclusions . 

But the last part i must question. As it assumes that the Republic cannot be as moving as the superficial sight of boobs . For even if your mind is drawn to superical it will not stay there as the promise in it is minimal. Just as the driver will grow tired . The Republic offers more like the field of truth the horses wish to go. 

But this is none the less interesting  Smile
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.

Inuit Proverb

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#37
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
(March 15, 2018 at 8:56 pm)Tizheruk Wrote: As it assumes that the Republic cannot be as moving as the superficial sight of boobs . For even if your mind is drawn to superical it will not stay there as the promise in it is minimal. Just as the driver will grow tired . The Republic offers more like the field of truth the horses wish to go. 

But this is none the less interesting  Smile

Again, you are echoing Plato more than you refute him. I love the Republic. It's my favorite book. I sincerely believe that if everyone read and understood the Republic, the world would be a better place. It is good philosophy. But boobs capture my attention more. Ideally, that wouldn't be so. But the human condition isn't ideal. In civilized society, we must contend with our instinctual foibles.

Compromise and mutual benefit are preferable to war and mutual destruction. That much is true. And to realize this truth is inspiring. But look at the world. War prevails over compromise, even though compromise leads to the greater benefit. Why? Because we are territorial animals. Even though it leads to violence and destruction that ultimately harms us, we cannot help but to piss on a piece of soil and assault any creature who ventures upon our piss stain.

If logic truly were the stronger force, as you suggest, the civilized world would have developed much differently than it has. Logic is the underdog in our internal conflicts. Only by first realizing that it is at a disadvantage can logic ever hope to win over instinct.
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#38
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
Just saw this thread. A post I made in the other seems applicable here as well.

(March 16, 2018 at 6:14 am)alpha male Wrote:
(March 16, 2018 at 2:38 am)robvalue Wrote: I can't understand what this whole, "you just want to sin" thing is supposed to mean. I suppose it's a total failure to be able to see our side. Or projection. What they really mean is, "I just want to sin". They want to do those things they see atheists do, but they can't. (Most likely they do them anyway but feel really guilty about them.)

It always amazes me how you can see something and yet not see it at the same time.

"Most likely they do them anyway but feel really guilty about them."

You see it, but you don't. 

People generally don't enjoy feeling guilty.

Guilt can be viewed as cognitive dissonance between an action, and a belief that the action is immoral. 

The two most obvious ways to relieve such cognitive dissonance are:
- stop the behavior, or
- remove the belief that the behavior is immoral.

I'm saying the latter - removing the belief in God, and so removing the belief certain behaviors are immoral - is a dynamic present in unbelief.

We can test that idea. Christianity is the main religion in America, and Christianity largely condemns homosexual behavior. If I'm right, we'd expect gays to be more likely to be atheists and less likely to be Christians. If you guys are right that people believe just based on the merits of the evidence, we shouldn't see a difference, as gays and straights have access to the same evidence. Here's a study on that:
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/201...iliations/

Atheist and agnostic make up 17% of gays, but only 7% of straights. Christianity makes up 72% of straights, but only 48% of gays. It's clear that people's desired behavior influences belief.

Plus, you guys should want to agree with me. You too often make a knee-jerk opposition to something I say without thinking it through. If people believe or not based on evidence, than the fact that most people have been theists of some sort shows that there's strong evidence for a creator god. So, you guys should readily agree that there are emotional influences on belief. (If you claim that unbelievers are unemotional in assessing evidence, but believers are emotional, you'll be called out for special pleading.)

Also, it's interesting how some people have somewhat different views on the topic, depending on which thread they're in. As wrong as Tiz is, he at least gets props for being consistent.
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#39
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
(March 16, 2018 at 8:25 am)alpha male Wrote: Plus, you guys should want to agree with me. You too often make a knee-jerk opposition to something I say without thinking it through. If people believe or not based on evidence, than the fact that most people have been theists of some sort shows that there's strong evidence for a creator god.
A more blatant ad pop couldn't be expressed.  Why should anyone want to agree with you in order to avoid some irrational conclusion you've reached? Particularly when they don't -have- to consider your irrational conclusion in order to agree or disagree? When it can be discarded either way.
When in the course of human events it becomes necessary for a battle to commence then KPLOW, I hit em with the illness of my quill, Im endowed..with certain unalienable skills....  

-ERB


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#40
RE: Does the head follow the heart in matters of truth?
When you follow your head, instead of your heart, in matters of truth, it is your heart that tells you that this is an important thing to do.
What gets my goat is when a person decides that fact is paramount most especially when it coincidentally delivers a crushing blow to an opponent.
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