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Human Reason and Christian Denominations
#21
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
Quote:yes he must be a Christian.

Then fuck you because you have your head up your ass as usual.
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#22
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
(April 6, 2018 at 4:29 pm)RoadRunner79 Wrote: ...That sounds silly to me too!   We all have different backgrounds, different biases, and different understandings about a number of things.  I wouldn't expect Christianity to be any different.  I don't think that any of us, are above reproach;  I've been wrong on things before, I changed my mind on things, and I've had to eat crow on occasion.   I'm still growing, still learning, and I'm sure still screwing up.

I do disagree, however, that any of this means that people are just making things up (perhaps some are).  But some of us, don't believe that we are free to just make things up, or that thins are subjective.   Some believe that there is an objective truth, that we are trying to achieve.

RoadRunner, how can biases play a part when you have a rulebook to play to, the gospels. If you adhere to the Christian dogma that the gospels are the inspired word of God you are not given leave to interoperate the church stance on these matters.
It's amazing 'science' always seems to 'find' whatever it is funded for, and never the oppsite. Drich.
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#23
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
(April 7, 2018 at 7:50 am)Godscreated Wrote:
(April 7, 2018 at 1:20 am)Jenny A Wrote: What I haven't gotten right is Christian theology.  

The denomination I was raised in is irrelevant.  No denomination I know of grapples with the fact that Jesus preached socialism and an immediate new order on earth.  Unless you twist his words to hell, that is what he was, an apocalyptic rabbi speaking to the Jews about a kingdom earth to be ruled by the 12 disciples (apparently Judas' betrayal had yet to occur to him at time he made that promise).

Christians should call themselves Paulites, because they sure don't follow Jesus. Christian theology is based on Paul, at the expense of the Gospels. But if you choose Paul, just remember that marriage is just barely more honorable than adultery. Better to marry than burn.

You still have it all wrong, the kingdom you speak of is the church and the disciples were to lead out in building Christ's bride. The socialism you speak of is Jesus telling us to help the needy, that isn't socialism by any stretch of the imagination. Jesus was not a rabbi even though some called Him by that title. Jesus never was recorded speaking directly to Judas except for the betrayal. Paul's teachings do not contradict what Jesus taught because Paul's teachings came directly from Jesus. Paul wasn't against marriage he taught that one did not necessarily need to be married if marriage wouldn't suit him, Paul was teaching devotion to Christ first the same thing Jesus taught. I'm a Southern Baptist and all parts of the Bible are just as important as any other. You have preached this same ol' message for a while now and it is as unworthy as it was the first time you brought it up. You must have left the church because this is all you got from the scriptures, this isn't the way to a Christian life, it's you who twist scriptures not the majority of Christians and as for you ever and I mean ever being a Christian in the past that was impossible.

GC

What a bunch of dogmatic horseshit, GC. Paul's teachings did not come directly from Jesus. They came from his own warped mind. The only reason people think that Paul was teaching Christianity is because they compressed his message into the same book as the Gospels. It's obvious to anyone who's read Paul's epistles that he was blissfully unaware of the Sermon on the Mount or any of Christ's parables. But if you can fool people into thinking that the OT is about Jesus, a simple bit of similar illogic can't fail to make the epistles congruous with the Gospels. But anyone who hasn't been sold the "package deal" (like Jenny) can see the difference like night and day.
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#24
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
Everything GC sees from an alternative view is wrong.

Nothing is wrong with his view because it is right.

Is conversation worthwhile?

DK
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#25
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
(April 7, 2018 at 7:50 am)Godscreated Wrote:
(April 7, 2018 at 1:20 am)Jenny A Wrote: What I haven't gotten right is Christian theology.  

The denomination I was raised in is irrelevant.  No denomination I know of grapples with the fact that Jesus preached socialism and an immediate new order on earth.  Unless you twist his words to hell, that is what he was, an apocalyptic rabbi speaking to the Jews about a kingdom earth to be ruled by the 12 disciples (apparently Judas' betrayal had yet to occur to him at time he made that promise).

Christians should call themselves Paulites, because they sure don't follow Jesus. Christian theology is based on Paul, at the expense of the Gospels. But if you choose Paul, just remember that marriage is just barely more honorable than adultery. Better to marry than burn.

You still have it all wrong, the kingdom you speak of is the church and the disciples were to lead out in building Christ's bride. The socialism you speak of is Jesus telling us to help the needy, that isn't socialism by any stretch of the imagination. Jesus was not a rabbi even though some called Him by that title. Jesus never was recorded speaking directly to Judas except for the betrayal. Paul's teachings do not contradict what Jesus taught because Paul's teachings came directly from Jesus. Paul wasn't against marriage he taught that one did not necessarily need to be married if marriage wouldn't suit him, Paul was teaching devotion to Christ first the same thing Jesus taught. I'm a Southern Baptist and all parts of the Bible are just as important as any other. You have preached this same ol' message for a while now and it is as unworthy as it was the first time you brought it up. You must have left the church because this is all you got from the scriptures, this isn't the way to a Christian life, it's you who twist scriptures not the majority of Christians and as for you ever and I mean ever being a Christian in the past that was impossible.  

GC

Among historians (as opposed to believers) that Jesus was a rabbi with an apopolyptic message has been the majority view for some time.  Rabbi, simply means teacher.  And whatever else Jesus might have been he was a Jewish teacher.  And his audience were primarily Jews.  

The oldest words in the Gospels are appocoliptic.  The more recent the verbiage the less apopolyptic.  When analysing sources (biblical or otherwise), historians choose older more contemperanious sources.  Theologians tend to do the reverse with the Bible.  Funny that.


Give to the poor and give away EVERYTHING that you have are rather different don't you think? Because Jesus said everything.


And no, this doesn't sound like establishing a church:
Quote:Truly I say to you, in the renewed world, when the Son of Man is sitting on his throne of glory, you disciples also will be seated on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Mathew 19:28 And yes Judas was one of the twelve.
If there is a god, I want to believe that there is a god.  If there is not a god, I want to believe that there is no god.
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#26
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
(April 7, 2018 at 3:55 pm)vulcanlogician Wrote:
(April 7, 2018 at 7:50 am)Godscreated Wrote: You still have it all wrong, the kingdom you speak of is the church and the disciples were to lead out in building Christ's bride. The socialism you speak of is Jesus telling us to help the needy, that isn't socialism by any stretch of the imagination. Jesus was not a rabbi even though some called Him by that title. Jesus never was recorded speaking directly to Judas except for the betrayal. Paul's teachings do not contradict what Jesus taught because Paul's teachings came directly from Jesus. Paul wasn't against marriage he taught that one did not necessarily need to be married if marriage wouldn't suit him, Paul was teaching devotion to Christ first the same thing Jesus taught. I'm a Southern Baptist and all parts of the Bible are just as important as any other. You have preached this same ol' message for a while now and it is as unworthy as it was the first time you brought it up. You must have left the church because this is all you got from the scriptures, this isn't the way to a Christian life, it's you who twist scriptures not the majority of Christians and as for you ever and I mean ever being a Christian in the past that was impossible.

GC

What a bunch of dogmatic horseshit, GC. Paul's teachings did not come directly from Jesus. They came from his own warped mind.

Prove your assumption, one atheist make all the time and never, ever give proof.

vulcanlogician Wrote:The only reason people think that Paul was teaching Christianity is because they compressed his message into the same book as the Gospels. It's obvious to anyone who's read Paul's epistles that he was blissfully unaware of the Sermon on the Mount or any of Christ's parables. But if you can fool people into thinking that the OT is about Jesus, a simple bit of similar illogic can't fail to make the epistles congruous with the Gospels. But anyone who hasn't been sold the "package deal" (like Jenny) can see the difference like night and day.

 Paul was quite aware of Jesus teachings, they are all through his writings, it is the biblically blind who can't see this or that the OT is about the coming of Christ for the sake of mankind.

GC

(April 7, 2018 at 6:01 pm)Jenny A Wrote:
(April 7, 2018 at 7:50 am)Godscreated Wrote: You still have it all wrong, the kingdom you speak of is the church and the disciples were to lead out in building Christ's bride. The socialism you speak of is Jesus telling us to help the needy, that isn't socialism by any stretch of the imagination. Jesus was not a rabbi even though some called Him by that title. Jesus never was recorded speaking directly to Judas except for the betrayal. Paul's teachings do not contradict what Jesus taught because Paul's teachings came directly from Jesus. Paul wasn't against marriage he taught that one did not necessarily need to be married if marriage wouldn't suit him, Paul was teaching devotion to Christ first the same thing Jesus taught. I'm a Southern Baptist and all parts of the Bible are just as important as any other. You have preached this same ol' message for a while now and it is as unworthy as it was the first time you brought it up. You must have left the church because this is all you got from the scriptures, this isn't the way to a Christian life, it's you who twist scriptures not the majority of Christians and as for you ever and I mean ever being a Christian in the past that was impossible.  

GC

Among historians (as opposed to believers) that Jesus was a rabbi with an apopolyptic message has been the majority view for some time.  Rabbi, simply means teacher.  And whatever else Jesus might have been he was a Jewish teacher.  And his audience were primarily Jews. 

Historians who have no interest in Jesus as the Son of God. Jesus taught the message of salvation for mankind. Jesus being a teacher and also called rabbi and teaching the Jews doesn't eliminate Him from being the Son of God/ God the Son. Jesus did speak of the end of time, that would usher in eternal life for mankind. Apocalyptic teaching is an end period. Jesus taught of a renewing of the corrupted.

Jenny A Wrote:The oldest words in the Gospels are appocoliptic.  The more recent the verbiage the less apopolyptic.  When analysing sources (biblical or otherwise), historians choose older more contemperanious sources.  Theologians tend to do the reverse with the Bible.  Funny that.

Just how do you know who wrote what first, we have no originals and if we did they would not have been dated. All the Gospels were written within a few years of each other so how is it you can say "recent verbiage." Historians trying to be accurate about the Bible, only those who believe and we call them theologians, the Bible is put together with the best manuscripts available and if there is a difference in older and more recent manuscripts a good study Bible will note this difference. Funny how you think historians desire the real truth when throughout time many have sought to rewrite history, the kings of Egypt are famous for blotting out the history of former rulers, take King Tutankhamun for example. The Babylonians distorted history in their favor, so why should I believe that people who have no interest in Jesus would be truthful.

Jenny A Wrote:Give to the poor and give away EVERYTHING that you have are rather different don't you think? Because Jesus said everything.

Jesus said that to one person, it was not a teaching of His. When asked by the pharisees about tithing, Jesus said to render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and render unto God what is God's, this is a teaching. You do not have any idea why Jesus told the rich young man to give away all He owned do you and it was for a certain purpose that was for him only. You think you can twist the words of scripture around and fool me you are wrong, you might fool those who wish to be fooled and you will be held accountable for this action at the judgement.  

Jenny A Wrote:And no, this doesn't sound like establishing a church:
Quote:Truly I say to you, in the renewed world, when the Son of Man is sitting on his throne of glory, you disciples also will be seated on twelve thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

See the bold by me, that should have been a great big hint to you ... but you are biblically blind and can't even see the simplest of understanding of the scriptures. This is referring to the time of judgement, an event that happens after the tribulation. You have no knowledge of what the scriptures say/teach and you are most likely repeating things you have read by others who want to destroy Christianity and by assuming they know what they are saying and repeating it makes you look foolish.

Jenny A Wrote:Mathew 19:28 And yes Judas was one of the twelve.

 I did not say Judas wasn't one of the twelve, Judas wasn't a believer in Jesus as God. 

 GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#27
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
(April 6, 2018 at 2:19 pm)Bahana Wrote: What's interesting to me about all the different sects of Christianity is that it is a prime example of humans using their own reason to create a belief system. Look at how varied some denominations are. Some will allow a homosexual to lead a church while others will not let a known gay person through the door. They all use the same Bible but use their own reason to decide what parts to emphasize and how to properly interpret scripture. It's not like some supernatural being is communicating them to tell them exactly what to do. If some Christians here believe that is the case then feel free to provide evidence of your communication with this being.

Yes, thank goodness! Christianity is highly fractured which is why the USA never became a theocracy. Even with all the checks and balances the founding architects put into our constitution, the religious right could have taken control - if they were unified. But thankfully, THIS prevailed.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#28
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
Exactly, they can't agree on who would be ostracized and demonized.

They don't seem to get that secularism protects everyone, even them. If they ever met a real theocracy they'd probably crap their pants and be whining to be let out after five minutes.

(I'm talking about the extreme fundamentalist types here.)
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#29
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
(April 6, 2018 at 2:19 pm)Bahana Wrote: What's interesting to me about all the different sects of Christianity is that it is a prime example of humans using their own reason to create a belief system. Look at how varied some denominations are. Some will allow a homosexual to lead a church while others will not let a known gay person through the door. They all use the same Bible but use their own reason to decide what parts to emphasize and how to properly interpret scripture. It's not like some supernatural being is communicating them to tell them exactly what to do. If some Christians here believe that is the case then feel free to provide evidence of your communication with this being.

Glob...

Look At Jesus' personal ministry. Did He command the same level of understanding from everyone? or did He soetime just put a parable out there for those mature in faith to understand and let everyone else apply it as they could?

Here's an example the parable of the talents (A talent being a measure of gold equal to that of a year's wage for a laborer)

A land owner gathered his three best servants to the best he gave 3 talents to invest any way he wish to the second best servant he was given 2 talents to invest any way he wish and to the third he was given one talent to invest on behalf of the land owner any way he wish.

Some time went by and the land owner returned eager to see how is servants did with their investments.

The first did very well and double what he was given, and the land owner was very pleased.

The second also doubled what he was given and he was very pleased!!

The third returned exactly what he was given, because rather than risk an investment he buried what was given to Him... Citing that he knew the land owner to be a harsh man reaping where he had not sown. What was given to this man was taken away and given to the man who had 6 bags of gold. then he was cast out side the master's lands left to fend for himself.

(More or less/i paraphrased the message) 

What was the lesson here?

IF Jesus demanded we all meet a certain understanding or common base line with the law then why wasn't a common law ever issued as with the Jews?
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#30
RE: Human Reason and Christian Denominations
(April 9, 2018 at 4:11 pm)Drich Wrote:
(April 6, 2018 at 2:19 pm)Bahana Wrote: What's interesting to me about all the different sects of Christianity is that it is a prime example of humans using their own reason to create a belief system. Look at how varied some denominations are. Some will allow a homosexual to lead a church while others will not let a known gay person through the door. They all use the same Bible but use their own reason to decide what parts to emphasize and how to properly interpret scripture. It's not like some supernatural being is communicating them to tell them exactly what to do. If some Christians here believe that is the case then feel free to provide evidence of your communication with this being.

Glob...

Look At Jesus' personal ministry. Did He command the same level of understanding from everyone? or did He soetime just put a parable out there for those mature in faith to understand and let everyone else apply it as they could?

Here's an example the parable of the talents (A talent being a measure of gold equal to that of a year's wage for a laborer)

A land owner gathered his three best servants to the best he gave 3 talents to invest any way he wish to the second best servant he was given 2 talents to invest any way he wish and to the third he was given one talent to invest on behalf of the land owner any way he wish.

Some time went by and the land owner returned eager to see how is servants did with their investments.

The first did very well and double what he was given, and the land owner was very pleased.

The second also doubled what he was given and he was very pleased!!

The third returned exactly what he was given, because rather than risk an investment he buried what was given to Him... Citing that he knew the land owner to be a harsh man reaping where he had not sown. What was given to this man was taken away and given to the man who had 6 bags of gold. then he was cast out side the master's lands left to fend for himself.

(More or less/i paraphrased the message) 

What was the lesson here?

IF Jesus demanded we all meet a certain understanding or common base line with the law then why wasn't a common law ever issued as with the Jews?

Would you say some denominations are not interpreting scripture properly because they don't understand it properly? Most denominations accuse the other of not getting it quite right. They use their own reason and try to figure it out. Is there a booming voice coming from the sky telling them how to interpret certain passages?
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