Human Reason and Christian Denominations

[vorlon13]

That sounds silly to me too!   We all have different backgrounds, different biases, and different understandings about a number of things.  I wouldn't expect Christianity to be any different.  I don't think that any of us, are above reproach;  I've been wrong on things before, I changed my mind on things, and I've had to eat crow on occasion.   I'm still growing, still learning, and I'm sure still screwing up.

I do disagree, however, that any of this means that people are just making things up (perhaps some are).  But some of us, don't believe that we are free to just make things up, or that thins are subjective.   Some believe that there is an objective truth, that we are trying to achieve.

So the fact that Christians claim that the "bible is the infallible word of God, means nothing? 

So many Christians come here and preach that atheists don't understand the word of god (the bible), accusing us of having never read the bible, or that there are theists who aren't True Christians© because they don't understand the bible. We have one theist who claims he never mis-translates the bible. That it is everyone else who does it. 
This is quite simple. If your religion is making the claim that the bible has been translated from translations of translations of copies of copies of copies of original manuscripts (that no one has ever been able to prove exists), then the bible can only be interpreted in one way. And that way would be the way that those who have transcribed the document, intended for it to be read. 

Unless you're all just making this shit up and can't prove in any way that your particular type of Christianity got it right.


I'm gonna go with that. Yeah. It's definitely that. What the bible is, is a fictional work of literature that, just like any other novel, has flaws and gaps and some holes in the story. Problem is, it probably could have been written better had editors and other people in the book business been around back then to check facts, spelling and grammar.

Even important stuff is ambiguously penned.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[vulcanlogician]

Did you read the link from the non-Pauline Christian site? All it is is citations from the Bible contrasting the teachings of Paul and Jesus.

Pick one of them and we can discuss.

I can't back down from challenge, especially if I have advanced claims concerning it. I didn't say that I could defend the arguments in the link, but you said you could refute them. I put it in the spoiler box below. It does appear to contain a contradiction.

It's important to recognize, however that even the Bible says that Paul never knew the living Jesus. What has survived the ages is a collection of letters which might very well contained Paul's own opinions on things. (You must admit that at no time does Paul refer to his own letters as the inerrant word of God.) Anyway, here is an excerpt from the link:

---

Jesus Says Merciful Receive Mercy, But Paul Says Only Those God Chooses Arbitrarily Will Receive Mercy
(From Edgar Jones' Paul v. Jesus: A List of Incompatible Statements)
On whom God has mercy:

Paul says:


[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. 
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Jesus says:


[7] Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. 

---

Paul Says Salvation Does Not Depend Upon Exertion, But Jesus Says It Does
(From )
 On unconditional election:

Paul says:

[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

Jesus says:


[21] Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.

---

So those are two points made in the link that I understand and we can discuss. But rather than parse through scripture (not my style) why not look at what theologians have to say on the matter? That is what I was referring to when I said that Paul was unfamiliar with Jesus.

People think that the faith/works debate is a matter of interpretation of scripture. Not so, say this article. According to it, the debate was actually between Paul and James... church leaders who both have their writings featured in the Bible. Is it any wonder that (when two opposing views are published in the same document) people interpret it two different ways?

Most students are surprised to find that if they simply make a list of what Paul says about Jesus between the time of his birth and the time of his death, they don’t need much more than a 3×5 card. I’ll devote a couple of posts to what it is Paul says about the historical Jesus, and then at least one post, possibly more, to the question of why he doesn’t say more.

https://ehrmanblog.org/what-did-paul-kno...r-members/

[John V]

Pick one of them and we can discuss.

I can't back down from challenge, especially if I have advanced claims concerning it. I didn't say that I could defend the arguments in the link, but you said you could refute them. I put it in the spoiler box below. It does appear to contain a contradiction.

It's important to recognize, however that even the Bible says that Paul never knew the living Jesus.

Yes, and? From the Christian perspective which allows revelation, how is that important?

BTW, right clicking and choosing paste as plain text is your friend.

Jesus Says Merciful Receive Mercy, But Paul Says Only Those God Chooses Arbitrarily Will Receive Mercy
(From Edgar Jones' Paul v. Jesus: A List of Incompatible Statements)
On whom God has mercy:

Paul says:

Rom.9
[15] For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.
[18] So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

Jesus says:

Matt.5
[7] Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy.

Paul says that God has mercy on those whom he wills. He doesn't say that God does so arbitrarily - the commentator reads that in unnecessarily.

Jesus says that the merciful obtain mercy. He doesn't say that they are the only ones who obtain mercy. Again, the commentator reads that in unnecessarily.

So, God shows mercy to a group of people - Paul doesn't say what criteria are used. We know from Jesus that one such subset of that group is people who are themselves merciful.

There's no contradiction in the text itself. It's the reader's additional and unwarranted assumptions that create a contradiction.

So those are two points made in the link that I understand and we can discuss. But rather than parse through scripture (not my style) why not look at what theologians have to say on the matter? That is what I was referring to when I said that Paul was unfamiliar with Jesus.

That Paul didn't know as much about the earthly life of Jesus as other people did isn't a point of contention.

[The Grand Nudger]

Paul tells you that mans will and exertion certainly -aren't- the criteria..though jesus seems to think that a merciful will or the exertion of mercy will work.

Personally, I can't see it as a big deal. Books have continuity errors..and this particular book was formed by committee. That..and, frankly, we know that most christians are pauline christians. That it's pauls story that forms the basis of modern christian belief..not jesus'. I say -I- can't see it as a big deal..but then you bend over backwards to turn it into one, ofc, lol.

[John V]

Paul Says Salvation Does Not Depend Upon Exertion, But Jesus Says It Does
(From )
 On unconditional election:

Paul says:

[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

Jesus says:


[21] Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.

Wowsers, talk about getting things completely backwards. The quote from Jesus also says that people aren't saved based on their exertions - do you even read this stuff? It says people who do mighty works in the name of Jesus aren't necessarily saved.

Here's what Jesus says the work is:

John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Belief and work are intertwined.

[The Grand Nudger]

Jesus says people who do his fathers will get in (conveniently, "believing" in him liker a bunch of hapless rubes, lol).  Paul says nyet.

[vulcanlogician]

Paul Says Salvation Does Not Depend Upon Exertion, But Jesus Says It Does
(From )
 On unconditional election:

Paul says:

[16] So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy.

Jesus says:


[21] Not every one who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 
[22] On that day many will say to me, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.

Wowsers, talk about getting things completely backwards. The quote from Jesus also says that people aren't saved based on their exertions - do you even read this stuff? It says people who do mighty works in the name of Jesus aren't necessarily saved.

Here's what Jesus says the work is:

John 6
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Belief and work are intertwined.

See the bolded stuff. Yes, I can read. Seems like just doing stuff "in Jesus' name" isn't important as actually doing the will of the father. I take that to mean you should humbly obey what is laid out in the sermon in which this verse is found--not make a big show of your deeds while ignoring what Jesus has commanded. Seeing the state of modern Christianity it's no wonder people simply fail to read verse 21 and use verse 22 to refute the content of verse 21. Wowsers indeed!

---

I'd like to give a special thanks to Alpha Male for taking me back to the day when I used to get into arguments on the Star Trek forums over canonicity. It's been quite some time since I've gotten into a debate over fictional material as if it were real world stuff. Nostalgia overload!

[Drich]

Glob...

Look At Jesus' personal ministry. Did He command the same level of understanding from everyone? or did He soetime just put a parable out there for those mature in faith to understand and let everyone else apply it as they could?

Here's an example the parable of the talents (A talent being a measure of gold equal to that of a year's wage for a laborer)

A land owner gathered his three best servants to the best he gave 3 talents to invest any way he wish to the second best servant he was given 2 talents to invest any way he wish and to the third he was given one talent to invest on behalf of the land owner any way he wish.

Some time went by and the land owner returned eager to see how is servants did with their investments.

The first did very well and double what he was given, and the land owner was very pleased.

The second also doubled what he was given and he was very pleased!!

The third returned exactly what he was given, because rather than risk an investment he buried what was given to Him... Citing that he knew the land owner to be a harsh man reaping where he had not sown. What was given to this man was taken away and given to the man who had 6 bags of gold. then he was cast out side the master's lands left to fend for himself.

(More or less/i paraphrased the message) 

What was the lesson here?

IF Jesus demanded we all meet a certain understanding or common base line with the law then why wasn't a common law ever issued as with the Jews?

Would you say some denominations are not interpreting scripture properly because they don't understand it properly? Most denominations accuse the other of not getting it quite right. They use their own reason and try to figure it out. Is there a booming voice coming from the sky telling them how to interpret certain passages?

Of course, but that is the point!

Look at The talents are levels of understanding.
 
To the guy given full understanding far more is expected.

to the guy given very little or basic understanding little is expected, but something is still expected. Meaning one has to take what he is given and strive to doubble the understanding that he has.

Each of us is given according to our own unique ablities.

So what happens when we get it wrong?

The same grace that covers our willful rebellious sin covers our poor understanding.. Consider guy A who is in christ repeatatly sins the same sin over and over. So long as he in turns those who sin against Him, he is forgiven for his will ful sin.

Now imagine one who simply does not understand the in's and out's of the bible because he doesn't have the 'talent' to grasp everything needed. yet in his bad effort  seeks to serve God with all of his being... How much more is God willing to forgive an honest mistake than will full sin?

We are given only so much to work with. Our only ask is that we use all that we have and make a return on what God invested in us. for some this may mean little more than basic understanding, for others how ever much much more is expected/demanded from God.

We are not judged by a set standard but on a continually changing curb based on our personal gifts and abilities. Otherwise why didn't Jesus nor any of the deciples come up with a book of law lke moses did (A set standard of right and wrong)

The answer is under this covenant acts have no meaning unless you are under the law (Unsaved) once you are apart of the new covenant (Saved) God judges you by the 'morality of Christ.' which in effect takes all moral value from the acts themselves and ascribes 'righteousness' not to according to what we do but who we know/Christ.

[The Grand Nudger]

Ah, the sweet heresy of radical grace.  

You think it doesn't matter what you do, only who you know..but I'm pretty sure jesus made it clear that your actions did matter....and that it was about who -he- knew...not you.

[Godscreated]

So the fact that Christians claim that the "bible is the infallible word of God, means nothing? 

So many Christians come here and preach that atheists don't understand the word of god (the bible), accusing us of having never read the bible, or that there are theists who aren't True Christians© because they don't understand the bible. We have one theist who claims he never mis-translates the bible. That it is everyone else who does it. 
This is quite simple. If your religion is making the claim that the bible has been translated from translations of translations of copies of copies of copies of original manuscripts (that no one has ever been able to prove exists), then the bible can only be interpreted in one way. And that way would be the way that those who have transcribed the document, intended for it to be read. 

Unless you're all just making this shit up and can't prove in any way that your particular type of Christianity got it right.


I'm gonna go with that. Yeah. It's definitely that. What the bible is, is a fictional work of literature that, just like any other novel, has flaws and gaps and some holes in the story. Problem is, it probably could have been written better had editors and other people in the book business been around back then to check facts, spelling and grammar.

Even important stuff is ambiguously penned.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.      

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

 You throw that out as if there's a contradiction between the two, I do not see it want to give me an explanation.

GC

---

Pick one of them and we can discuss.

I can't back down from challenge, especially if I have advanced claims concerning it. I didn't say that I could defend the arguments in the link, but you said you could refute them. I put it in the spoiler box below. It does appear to contain a contradiction.

It's important to recognize, however that even the Bible says that Paul never knew the living Jesus. What has survived the ages is a collection of letters which might very well contained Paul's own opinions on things. (You must admit that at no time does Paul refer to his own letters as the inerrant word of God.) Anyway, here is an excerpt from the link:

If you can't defend it then that means you do not understand it, so why put it out there as if you knew exactly what was meant, you all want us to defend from the scriptures yet you guys won't do the same thing most of the time and sense the scriptures are what you protest as being contradictive you should by necessity use the scriptures to prove your point and not someone else's opinion. If you haven't an opinion of the scriptures through knowledge of them then what do you actually have, not much as I see it.
 
I do not believe you will ever get an argument from the Christians here that Paul knew Jesus while He lived here on earth. Paul never says, but Paul and Jesus were alive at the same time. Paul did come to know Christ when he met Him on the road to Damascus and the three days he was in prayer while blind. I've never seen Christ in physical form but I've met Him many times in prayer and the lives of others. By the way why would Paul give so much advice to others and the churches he helped to establish if He didn't believe he was giving them the advice that came from God to him. Paul's life shows us that he was never in this for his own glory, he was doing that before he met Christ.
 
The rest has been well answered by Alpha Male and no need in me trying to add to what he excellently posted.

GC[/quote]