Oh no not another free will thread.

[The Grand Nudger]

Fortunately, despite the future having no apples. At the present time when he wanted an apple, there was an apple tree right there.

You know what would be a real tragedy? If bob fucking -loved- bananas.  Too bad, so sad, he's not going to get one, he has to choose the orange.

[Silver]

You know what would be a real tragedy? If bob fucking -loved- bananas.  Too bad, so sad, he's not going to get one, he has to choose the orange.

But there's a banana right there next to the oranges at the grocery store.

[The Grand Nudger]

Man states with knowledge "The world is ending on this certain date".

Does the world end on that date?

How many times has that knowledge come to pass?

Never.  I'm unaware of anyone having ever possessed such knowledge, though, you?  

So much for knowledge.

There's always the chance that the next guy might have it.  They keep writing sequels.

---

You know what would be a real tragedy?   If bob fucking -loved- bananas.  Too bad, so sad, he's not going to get one, he has to choose the orange.

But there's a banana right there next to the oranges at the grocery store.

That;s the tragic part..the banana is right there, the apple is right there..bob hates oranges, loves nanners...I bet he has a weird sex fetish for apples, too...but he's going to pick the orange.  He can't do or choose otherwise.

[Silver]

That;s the tragic part..the banana is right there, the apple is right there..bob hates oranges, loves nanners...I bet he has a weird sex fetish for apples, too...but he's going to pick the orange.  He can't do or choose otherwise.

Sounds more like a strange affectation to indecision, to be honest.

[henryp]

Here's my time travel hypothetical.

Bob video tapes Larry choosing between a banana and an orange.  Larry chooses an orange of his own free will.  Bob sends the video tape back in time to himself.  Bob now knows Larry will choose an orange.

Does Bob's knowledge of Larry choosing an orange make him choose the orange?  Or does Larry choosing an orange of his own free will cause Bob to know Larry will choose the orange?

No, see my previous response. Full knowledge of a future choice C does not necessarily determine the choice, but such knowledge does indicate it isn't a choice made freely in the libertarian sense.

Freely in libertarian just says that it's a choice, not causal determinism.  

Prior to receiving the tape from the future, Bob can't know what Larry is going to choose, which rules out causal determinism, no?

[The Grand Nudger]

I think you mean that bob doesn't know, yet. If it -can- be known..there is at least, in principle, a way that he could know it...and that what he could know, is that bob can't and won't choose the banana. Causal determinism, btw, needn't be the reason that this is the case. Hard fatalism would be even more convenient.

[GrandizerII]

No, see my previous response. Full knowledge of a future choice C does not necessarily determine the choice, but such knowledge does indicate it isn't a choice made freely in the libertarian sense.

Freely in libertarian just says that it's a choice, not causal determinism.

Under libertarian free will, it is possible that nothing determines the choice one makes. Logically incoherent, but that's the free will the typical theist believes in.

Prior to receiving the tape from the future, Bob can't know what Larry is going to choose, which rules out causal determinism, no?

Not necessarily. The only way to rule out causal determinism is to say that choices can be made randomly, which is not what you're assuming here. Larry still chose what he chose for a reason. And Bob simply observes that choice in advance.

[brewer]

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Is this a valid explanation for malingering?

Oh, oh, and blaming parents?

Irrelevant.

I disagree.

[Sal]

I think one of the main problems with Free Will stems from our ability to revise our actions after we've done them.

Self-causation is internally contradictory, as pointed out in OP, but I'm not so sure this alone invalidates a tradional view of Free Will.

We certainly have volition, since we're able to make decisions. But because we don't see the inner workings and the underlying causations of our thinking and therefore actions means we also have a feeling of being in control of our volition and resulting decisions. This leaves us with the illusion of Free Will, if one agrees with the above.

I don't think anyone has Free Will, I think "Free Will" is one of those sounds-like-meaningful short phrases but is entirely inconsistent/contradictory, like asking what the meaning of life is. Just shows how powerful language is; the ability to construct sentences that make no sense.

[The Grand Nudger]

Free will is in imperfect self report based on a combination of missing data....and fundamentally misleading data. That's my personal opinion.