Kim Jong Un crosses DMZ to meet Moon Jae-In for historic meeting

[Crossless2.0]

Thank goodness that someone at The Times remembers history.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/27/opini...ss&emc=rss

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Kim Jong-un has a peace bridge he’d like to sell you.

His grandfather, Kim Il-sung, sold that bridge to Bill Clinton in 1994, promising to shut down a reactor designed to produce plutonium for bombs in exchange for oil supplies, a pair of “proliferation-resistant” reactors, and an easing of trade restrictions.
The deal, known as the Agreed Framework, “will make the United States, the Korean Peninsula, and the world safer,” Clinton promised. “It does not rely on trust. Compliance will be certified by the International Atomic Energy Agency.”

In 2002, North Korean negotiators admitted to pursuing a secret uranium-enrichment program. The Framework collapsed.
Six years after that, Kim’s father, Kim Jong-il, sold the same bridge to George W. Bush. In exchange for relief from U.S. sanctions, North Korea promised to declare its nuclear activities, disable its reactor, and allow international inspections.

“The policy of the United States is a Korean Peninsula free of all nuclear weapons,” Bush said in a statement. “This morning we moved a step closer to that goal when North Korean officials submitted a declaration of their nuclear programs.”
It soon became clear that the North’s declaration was incomplete. Pyongyang evicted inspectors the following April and conducted a nuclear test the next month.

Now it’s Kim’s turn to play the game of escalate-and-conciliate/cheat-and-repeat. Judging from Friday’s brilliantly orchestrated summit meeting with South Korean President Moon Jae-in in the village of Panmunjom, the young leader may be his family’s most adept player yet.

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You can bet your ass that the WLB doesn't know anything about this stuff.  And he's too stupid to learn.

Worse. His balls are in a vise and he's desperate for a "major deal" he can tout to his supporters (and the Congressional Republicans who fear them). Trump claims he won't be played by Kim (and the Chinese giving him his marching orders), but as usual I can't trust the son of a bitch.

[GUBU]

We don't know if it was destroyed but there was an earthquake and their facility could be damaged to the point of non operation .

Well, it seems to be the international consensus that it was. Several independent studies came to the same conclusion: The mountain collapsed, rendering the site unusable. And now we see the murdering fat man playing nice - something we've never seen NK do.

They are out of options.

They're not out of options. They've c. 50 nukes and the ability to launch them to the US west coast. With that Sword of Damocles Kim is looking at a negotiation from a position of strength.

The best deal Trump will get will be much weaker than the Iran deal he's ripping up.

[Napoléon]

So Trump didn't have anything to do with this then? Alrighty then.

Historically speaking North Korea has only survived because China and Russia has backed them. Europe wants a peaceful solution and in the past, America has sent foreign aid to North Korea in exchange for a treaty. This status quo was disrupted.

These events began just before Trump's inauguration. Kim Jong Un declares he has nuclear capacity and over the last year he has been testing a hydrogen bomb.

Six months ago Donald Trump went to China and agreed a coal deal (1). This helped China out. They had publicly vowed to block trade with North Korea but were too dependent on coal to actually block it.

Only a month after the American coal began arriving into China, China banned all imports from North Korea (2).With China out, North Korea only had Russia to back them while they suffered through global sanctions.

North Korea attempted to use black market transactions in order to get materials they need. The international community began stopping and detaining their ships as they tried to make trades in Russia and Syria (3).

In previous engagements European leaders and much of the rest of the world weren't willing to actually do anything besides apply sanctions. New leadership since then (particularly France) were much younger and were willing to take a new approach... essentially telling NK backers, don't deal with North Korea or else (what Trump refers to as, 'maximum pressure'). Sweden is basically the most pro-North Korea country in Europe. It's one of the few with an embassy there. They also came out against North Korea and at one point were threatening to abandon their embassy if North Korea wouldn't sit at the table.

A month ago Donald Trump publicly announced that he was willing to sit down with North Korea to discuss peace, but nuclear disarmament was a condition of these talks. 

The timing of this was critical considering how vulnerable NK is right now, including the fact their recent nuclear tests have fucked up (4) and they no longer have the same support from the main country backing them, China. Of course North Korea knows this and the sort of terms they would normally demand are no longer on the table for them. They just want a long term peace treaty... because stability is valuable, their people are likely starving, and they probably ain't gonna last too much longer economically with the current sanctions and lack of support. 

All this started from Trump signing the coal deal with China and changing the tactics to apply maximum pressure on North Korea. 

I understand this is hard for some people to stomach but it seems incredibly moronic to me to pretend that 1, this had nothing to do with Trump, and 2, to downplay how much of an achievement this is. Try to remember that no North Korean leader since the country's inception has set foot in South Korea. And vice versa. 

This is hopefully the first step to lasting peace on the peninsula and I for one welcome it.


1. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/...hina-visit
2. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china...SKBN15X09M
3. https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/14/asia/...index.html
4. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/a...tion-china

[vorlon13]

From Wiki:

Tired Mountain Syndrome

Tired mountain syndrome is a condition in which underground nuclear testing fractures and weakens rock, increasing permeability and the risk of release of radionuclides and radioactive contamination of the environment. Locations said to have undergone the syndrome include the French Polynesian island of Moruroa, Rainier Mesa in the United States, the Dnepr 1 nuclear test site on the Kola Peninsula in Russia, possibly Mount Lazarev in the Novaya Zemlya Test Site in Russia,[a] and Mount Mantap in North Korea.

[GUBU]

So Trump didn't have anything to do with this then? Alrighty then.

Trump was incidental. He may have sped up the process slightly he may have impeded it slightly.

But the two big impetuses for this outside of DPRK getting nukes have to be Moon Jae-in and his more pacific party getting in over the massive scandal that is right wing Korean politics and China wanting a less unstable vassal state in the northern half of the peninsula.

1) Trump's coal deal with China isn't worth much, China get's its coal from Australia not America. And he has since done a reverse ferret placing much bigger embargoes and tariffs in place which only have one goal, hurt China (though ironically given how cack-handed Trump's economic policy is, they've hurt the EU and the US a lot more than China).

2) China also didn't ban all imports into the North, they did a partial and targeted embargo of some of the goods flowing in, they tightened the tap rather than stopping the flow. A full embargo would have had one of two results, the break down of the North Korean political system or the creation of a new enemy for China on their doorsteps, one with access to nukes and unhinged enough to use them.

3) North Korea was never getting much off the black market to fund its nuclear programme, for the simple reason that the regimes supplying the black market didn't want anything to do with them.

4) The tests have not fucked up. NK has gone from a country with no nukes and no delivery system to a country with 50 nukes (and the ability to build more) and a working ICBM system in the last ten years. They've gone from Iraq to Israel in terms of military power.

And 5) your unspoken bit, Trump has shown himself over NK that he is so volatile so fickle and so devoid of ideas, strategy or plan that there is no possible way that inserting him into the mix was a good thing. Do you honestly think angering a dictator just as he's showing you that the has nukes and a way to nuke a good portion of your country is a sensible thing to do? Or suddenly changing your mind and accepting talks with no preconditions, no agreed framework and where you have gotten rid of anybody who has any expertise in the area (not that Trump listens to anything other than the voices in his head) who could actually guide you to a solution?

I hate to ask you this, but seeing as your evaluation of the situation is so lacking in reality, is your real name Bill O'Reilly? It's the only way I can see you getting everything arse over tits.

[Shell B]

I surprisingly couldn't find a thread on this

It makes Trump look good, so no surprise. I posted stuff like this until I got a warning for trolling.

Yeah, right.

[Napoléon]

Trump was incidental.

I think you're getting mixed up with the word 'instrumental'

But the two big impetuses for this outside of DPRK getting nukes have to be Moon Jae-in and his more pacific party getting in over the massive scandal that is right wing Korean politics and China wanting a less unstable vassal state in the northern half of the peninsula.

Ha, and why do you think China wants a less unstable vassal state? Because America suddenly told them it wasn't going to put up with their shit anymore. Which hadn't been the case with previous administrations.

1) Trump's coal deal with China isn't worth much, China get's its coal from Australia not America.  And he has since done a reverse ferret placing much bigger embargoes and tariffs in place which only have one goal, hurt China (though ironically given how cack-handed Trump's economic policy is, they've hurt the EU and the US a lot more than China).

Yes, hundred billion dollar deals are 'not worth much'. China gets its coal from numerous countries, but you seem to have missed the point. It doesn't get its coal from NK anymore. And yes, Trump has applied pressure to China with embargoes and tariffs. That only backs up my point about him applying maximum pressure. And guess what, it worked. Also, do you care to source this claim that they have harmed the EU and US more than China? Or are you just talking out of your ass.

Since Trump took to office he's done nothing but negotiate a BETTER DEAL for Americans with partners across the globe. Yet certain numbers of you are so butt hurt over the fact it's merely Trump you would rather see your own country decline than succeed. Sad.

2) China also didn't ban all imports into the North, they did a partial and targeted embargo of some of the goods flowing in, they tightened the tap rather than stopping the flow.  A full embargo would have had one of two results, the break down of the North Korean political system or the creation of a new enemy for China on their doorsteps, one with access to nukes and unhinged enough to use them.

Heh, nice straw man. I didn't actually say they banned imports of everything. It was fairly clear in that context that I was talking specifically about coal, and the source I quoted right after that sentence specifically is about coal. So nice try.

3) North Korea was never getting much off the black market to fund its nuclear programme, for the simple reason that the regimes supplying the black market didn't want anything to do with them.

I am not sure how you know what a black market does and doesn't want, especially in the face of evidence to the contrary when NK was literally caught red handed doing illicit ship to ship transfers.

4) The tests have not fucked up.  NK has gone from a country with no nukes and no delivery system to a country with 50 nukes (and the ability to build more) and a working ICBM system in the last ten years.  They've gone from Iraq to Israel in terms of military power.

You again seem to be missing the point and trying to build a straw man argument. I specifically said RECENT tests. To dumb it down for you, the point is not about North Korea's overall nuclear programme failing, but that they had clearly had a fuck up with their underground nuclear facility (which I and others in this thread have already sourced if you feel like reading). This would clearly have had a detrimental effect on their nuclear programme and again, would go back to my point about them being in an especially vulnerable state at the moment.

And 5) your unspoken bit, Trump has shown himself over NK that he is so volatile so fickle and so devoid of ideas, strategy or plan that there is no possible way that inserting him into the mix was a good thing.  Do you honestly think angering a dictator just as he's showing you that the has nukes and a way to nuke a good portion of your country is a sensible thing to do?  Or suddenly changing your mind and accepting talks with no preconditions, no agreed framework and where you have gotten rid of anybody who has any expertise in the area (not that Trump listens to anything other than the voices in his head) who could actually guide you to a solution?

The only people devoid of ideas have been the numerous previous administrations that have done nothing to stop North Korea from becoming a nuclear power in the first place. It is rather ironic you would accuse Trump of not having ideas when he's done more in 15 months than Obama did in 8 years on this issue.

On your other point, I think it was about damn time America flexed its might frankly. Trump was basically saying to Kim "don't be stupid kid, you know this doesn't end well for you". And again, you don't have to like it but it worked. Then the media then says "oh Trump's made a U-Turn" when the next month he is talking about peace talks, but in reality he's played you all like a damn fiddle. The liberals and left wing media consistently freak out over some god damn tweets but most people don't honestly give a fuck about that. They care about results.

I hate to ask you this

No you don't.

but seeing as your evaluation of the situation is so lacking in reality, is your real name Bill O'Reilly?  It's the only way I can see you getting everything arse over tits.

Seems to me the person lacking any grasp of reality on this situation is you. I'm here providing actual sources (left wing ones just for you lot might I add), and instead of any rational response I get accused of being Bill O'Reilly. In spite of the fact I'm yet to see you reference anything at all.


But ofcourse, Drumpf din't have nothin' to do wid it. He's a big dumby, anyone who says otherwise is a gun tooting wacist fox news reader.

[Catholic_Lady]

Credit where credit is due. Good move on his part. I still think he sucks though.

[Shell B]

He definitely sucks. I'll give credit when it's crystal clear what is happening. I'll definitely give it if it's due. I still think he's a giant shit heel who needs to have a coronary sooner rather than later.

[dyresand]

Obama and the dems could have done this in their 8 years but they didn't it. It took Trump to finally end the that war. 
If they wanted to win in 2016 he should have done that but now... Dems are laughing stock...

On a scale of 1 to 10, just how fucking stupid are you? What part of the following do you not understand?

The last NK nuke test destroyed their testing facility. It also posed a very real threat to China in that they could be a recipient of a radioactive cloud with a further collapse of the mountain. China read them the riot act. The North Koreans destroyed their own nuclear program because they are ignorant fucks. The Chinese probably suggested to them their current course of action: Pretend peace with S Korea in the hope that naive fools there will take them seriously and call for an expulsion of the US military forces in S Korea. China and N Korea both win.

Are you really so stupid as to think that the murdering fat thug in N Korea has suddenly become a nice guy? This is a man who murdered his own brother, who ordered the execution of his own uncle.

i admit it was wrong and i am sorry