DNA Proves Existence of a Designer

[pocaracas]

I have a question for you, CDF.

Please tell me about your life, since as way back as you can remember and put emphasis on your beliefs and upbringing, along with formal education.

Also, are you representing some sort of institution, or do you do these forays into forums on your own just for fun?

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Damn... those were two questions...

I am 39, I have 3 older sisters.  My mom passed away 11 years ago.  I was raised Catholic and I went to Catholic high school.  I always believed in God but then I struggled with that belief in college for a short time to the point I was almost a deist and then I studied DNA a bit.  I earned a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering (BSME).  I worked for the US government for 15 years as a mechanical engineer, design team leader, and systems engineer.  I served as a facilities engineer and a combat tank engineer.

Raised Catholic in the US?
That must have had it's difficulties, no?
What did you think of the evangelicals, when you were in that Catholic high school?
Were you aware of the creationists back then?

How did becoming convinced that the DNA was designed by god turn you from almost deism into Christianity?
What does Christianity have that deism doesn't? the bible?

I do not represent anyone but myself.  I do this because I enjoy discussing this with people.  It is my favorite topic to discuss and this a great outlet to discuss it.  I also like to serve the Lord and do my part to teach the truth to others.

You know that serving the Lord might not mean what other humans have told you it means, right?
If the Lord keeps himself hidden and out of our affairs, maybe that means that he doesn't want to interfere... which means that you serve him by also not interfering. And yet, you and most of your fellow religionists insist on interfering...

[robvalue]

Making statements that are meant to bind the very fabric of reality such as, "Non designed universes can't happen" is presuming to have godlike transcendent knowledge. I don't know how people can think of themselves so highly.

Of course, it could be stated that person X would describe any universe as "designed", regardless of the details; but that's not making any statement about reality. It just means that the person is using "designed" in a tautological, meaningless sense.

@poca: It's weird how the Christian God wants to hide from us, yet Christians are constantly trying to give away the fact that he is real. It doesn't seem to add up to me. Let the poor guy hide.

[CDF47]

I am 39, I have 3 older sisters.  My mom passed away 11 years ago.  I was raised Catholic and I went to Catholic high school.  I always believed in God but then I struggled with that belief in college for a short time to the point I was almost a deist and then I studied DNA a bit.  I earned a bachelor's degree in mechanical engineering (BSME).  I worked for the US government for 15 years as a mechanical engineer, design team leader, and systems engineer.  I served as a facilities engineer and a combat tank engineer.

Raised Catholic in the US?
That must have had it's difficulties, no?
What did you think of the evangelicals, when you were in that Catholic high school?
Were you aware of the creationists back then?

How did becoming convinced that the DNA was designed by god turn you from almost deism into Christianity?
What does Christianity have that deism doesn't? the bible?

I do not represent anyone but myself.  I do this because I enjoy discussing this with people.  It is my favorite topic to discuss and this a great outlet to discuss it.  I also like to serve the Lord and do my part to teach the truth to others.

You know that serving the Lord might not mean what other humans have told you it means, right?
If the Lord keeps himself hidden and out of our affairs, maybe that means that he doesn't want to interfere... which means that you serve him by also not interfering. And yet, you and most of your fellow religionists insist on interfering...

Being raised Catholic was no big deal.  I thought the evangelicals were much like we were but didn't accept Mary as much as we did and some other differences.  I found out later how many critical differences there were, like idolatry.  I always was a creationists. I was Christian always.

It was great to fine the design in DNA information and molecular machines.  It blew my mind.  It still does to this day.  It's a miracle.  
The Bible, yes, I believe it to be the word of God.

Christians are to bring the gospel to the world.

[pocaracas]

He has admitted that his whole premise is mere assumption when he said a non-designed universe is impossible. It's a simple question which generally stumps anyone going on about ID. I think the nearest thing I got to an answer from someone was that a non-designed universe would be "simpler", but no explanation was given as to what exactly that meant, or why it would be the case.

You can't get a universe from nothing, not even a simple universe.  This one is super-symmetrical/fine-tuned and definitely designed by a Creator.

From nothing, nothing flows. That much can be considered true.

But space-time is not nothing. Empty space-time is not nothing.
As I said before, science shows that space-time can generate matter and energy... so all you need to show is that a god can exist in the absence of space-time and that god is solely responsible for the creation of that space-time, from which everything else flows naturally.
God would be a truly amazing being as he would only create a simple thing... a thing of beauty that could then sprout our Universe and life and intelligence.... and, who knows, many more Universes!?

But you dumb god down to a measly creator of the Universe, dismissing what science tells us about space-time and using arguments filled with fallacies, not to mention the temporally charged concept of such creation that you consider to be ex-nihilo, but is anything but, given that it presupposes the existence of space-time.

[robvalue]

Our current scientific models, regarding what happens within this universe, suggest you can't get something "from nothing". But it's mere speculation to extrapolate that beyond the realms of our universe, in my opinion.

Can a universe pop into existence from nothing, for no reason? I don't know, and I don't see how anyone else can either. Maybe it can, maybe it can't. The answer to such a question doesn't need to make sense to us, it doesn't need to conform to our logic, nor to correlate with our local observations of this solitary universe we're subjectively experiencing.

(I'm using "universe" here as shorthand for "some self-contained environment", since it obviously makes no sense to talk about the universe being "all that exists" and then to discuss where it came from, or other potential universes.)

[CDF47]

You can't get a universe from nothing, not even a simple universe.  This one is super-symmetrical/fine-tuned and definitely designed by a Creator.

From nothing, nothing flows. That much can be considered true.

But space-time is not nothing. Empty space-time is not nothing.
As I said before, science shows that space-time can generate matter and energy... so all you need to show is that a god can exist in the absence of space-time and that god is solely responsible for the creation of that space-time, from which everything else flows naturally.
God would be a truly amazing being as he would only create a simple thing... a thing of beauty that could then sprout our Universe and life and intelligence.... and, who knows, many more Universes!?

But you dumb god down to a measly creator of the Universe, dismissing what science tells us about space-time and using arguments filled with fallacies, not to mention the temporally charged concept of such creation that you consider to be ex-nihilo, but is anything but, given that it presupposes the existence of space-time.

There is a great beauty and simplicity in this universe.  It is simple enough for us to get a basic understanding of it.  It is complex at the same time and takes our most intelligent people to make new discoveries mathematically,...  I believe there is no evidence for a multi-verse and no reason to say aliens exist on other planets.  SETI has searched for over half a century for alien communications and they found nothing.  I believe the universe is the size it is to show the great glory of God almighty.

There was no empty space in the beginning according to the most widely excepted science.  Space curvature was infinite so no space at all.  Hence, no matter and no energy.  Can't fit matter and energy into no space.

---

Our current scientific models, regarding what happens within this universe, suggest you can't get something "from nothing". But it's mere speculation to extrapolate that beyond the realms of our universe, in my opinion.

Can a universe pop into existence from nothing, for no reason? I don't know, and I don't see how anyone else can either. Maybe it can, maybe it can't. The answer to such a question doesn't need to make sense to us, it doesn't need to conform to our logic, nor to correlate with our local observations of this solitary universe we're subjectively experiencing.

(I'm using "universe" here as shorthand for "some self-contained environment", since it obviously makes no sense to talk about the universe being "all that exists" and then to discuss where it came from, or other potential universes.)

That is just one area where we disagree.  Since the universe came from nothing and since it is fine-tuned/super-symmetrical it definitely appears to be designed.

[pocaracas]

Raised Catholic in the US?
That must have had it's difficulties, no?
What did you think of the evangelicals, when you were in that Catholic high school?
Were you aware of the creationists back then?

How did becoming convinced that the DNA was designed by god turn you from almost deism into Christianity?
What does Christianity have that deism doesn't? the bible?


You know that serving the Lord might not mean what other humans have told you it means, right?
If the Lord keeps himself hidden and out of our affairs, maybe that means that he doesn't want to interfere... which means that you serve him by also not interfering. And yet, you and most of your fellow religionists insist on interfering...

Being raised Catholic was no big deal.  I thought the evangelicals were much like we were but didn't accept Mary as much as we did and some other differences.  I found out later how many critical differences there were, like idolatry.  I always was a creationists. I was Christian always.

Creationist in the Catholic sense, right?

It was great to fine the design in DNA information and molecular machines.  It blew my mind.  It still does to this day.  It's a miracle.  

Biology has some amazing machines at work... but that doesn't mean that they were designed per se... Biological trial and error, memoryless trial and error, along with hundreds of millions of years could do that, no external help required.... and it seems to be working still to this day.

The Bible, yes, I believe it to be the word of God.

Christians are to bring the gospel to the world.

You see?... Imagine that the Bible is a book written by people, believers similar to you, but merely believers nonetheless.
Imagine those people were interested in spreading their belief.
Imagine that they incorporated such desire into their writings.
Imagine that you believe what they wrote when they wrote that what they wrote had been the word of God?

Does that make it the word of God?


This is how I see those things. As people providing stories and beliefs to subsequent people, parents teaching their children, some thinkers expanding on some concepts, but ultimately, religion is a thing made by people and for people.
I'd have no problem accepting an entity capable of creating space-time... after that, everything seems to easily flow from it, including human credulity, human pattern seeking minds, human answer attributing in the absence of actual evidence for that answer... humans... after that, human psychology can account for all beliefs that have ever existed on this planet.

[CDF47]

Being raised Catholic was no big deal.  I thought the evangelicals were much like we were but didn't accept Mary as much as we did and some other differences.  I found out later how many critical differences there were, like idolatry.  I always was a creationists. I was Christian always.

Creationist in the Catholic sense, right?

It was great to fine the design in DNA information and molecular machines.  It blew my mind.  It still does to this day.  It's a miracle.  

Biology has some amazing machines at work... but that doesn't mean that they were designed per se... Biological trial and error, memoryless trial and error, along with hundreds of millions of years could do that, no external help required.... and it seems to be working still to this day.

The Bible, yes, I believe it to be the word of God.

Christians are to bring the gospel to the world.

You see?... Imagine that the Bible is a book written by people, believers similar to you, but merely believers nonetheless.
Imagine those people were interested in spreading their belief.
Imagine that they incorporated such desire into their writings.
Imagine that you believe what they wrote when they wrote that what they wrote had been the word of God?

Does that make it the word of God?


This is how I see those things. As people providing stories and beliefs to subsequent people, parents teaching their children, some thinkers expanding on some concepts, but ultimately, religion is a thing made by people and for people.
I'd have no problem accepting an entity capable of creating space-time... after that, everything seems to easily flow from it, including human credulity, human pattern seeking minds, human answer attributing in the absence of actual evidence for that answer... humans... after that, human psychology can account for all beliefs that have ever existed on this planet.

Right, creationist in the Catholic sense is what I meant.

I agree there is some adaptation in micro-evolution that occurs.

No, I believe the Bible was written by saints, prophets, and apostles and I believe it is the inspired word of God.  The Bible was written by approximately 40 authors over a 1500 year period and it is as if the entire Book was written by one mind.  There is no other Book like it.

[Amarok]

There is a great beauty and simplicity in this universe.  It is simple enough for us to get a basic understanding of it.  It is complex at the same time and takes our most intelligent people to make new discoveries mathematically,...  I believe there is no evidence for a multi-verse and no reason to say aliens exist on other planets.  SETI has searched for over half a century for alien communications and they found nothing.  I believe the universe is the size it is to show the great glory of God almighty.

There was no empty space in the beginning according to the most widely excepted science.  Space curvature was infinite so no space at all.  Hence, no matter and no energy.  Can't fit matter and energy into no space.

Distortion ,lies , and talking points ,

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You can't get a universe from nothing, not even a simple universe.  This one is super-symmetrical/fine-tuned and definitely designed by a Creator.

Distortion ,lies and fallacies

---

I agree there is some adaptation in micro-evolution that occurs.

No such thing their is only evolution .

No, I believe the Bible was written by saints, prophets, and apostles and I believe it is the inspired word of God.  The Bible was written by approximately 40 authors over a 1500 year period and it is as if the entire Book was written by one mind.  There is no other Book like it.

Historical ignorance

[robvalue]

Who even needs God when we have omniscient people right here?

Snark, snark. This is a point I go on about a lot. Making such sweeping statements about what "can't happen" is absurdly pointless. You can only ever end up being proved wrong, and can't be proved right. You can simply be wrong, and have no idea. And just saying it, and presenting your reasons for why you personally don't think something is possible, doesn't make it impossible.

Such statements are only worthwhile and defensible within our own created abstract systems where we dictate the rules.

This is why science deals with modeling what will most likely happen, rather than trying to make black and white statements.