What is your problem with Islam? Think about it

[robvalue]

All religions are stupid and potentially harmful. Islam is a religion. It's a current one, with millions of children being indoctrinated into it. It promotes the Quran as "the word of God"; one of the vilest books ever written. This is always a dangerous idea, but the particular book here is especially bad.

Yes, other religions are awful too, especially the other two Abrahamic religions. It could just as easily have been them causing the problems in the East.

[downbeatplumb]

My problems with Islam.
Are:

A: It purports to be truth while being rather silly and wrong.
B: Its oppressive nature.
C: Its misogynistic tendencies making women cover up and stay inside, not drive, etc etc.
D: Its draconian laws.
E: All the terrorism.
F: wherever it reigns there are oppressive regimes.
G: Kebabs

[Fake Messiah]

Yes. That's true. Taking non-believers as allies is a disaster, they rarely take Muslims seriously, and frankly they use the weaknesses of Islamic populations in a very obvious ways. If you want historical examples I can list them to you; but the last of them was what the British Empire did to its Muslim allies after WW1, which led to the nightmare of Israel.

The examples are many. Trump and his raids on Arab oil money is another. Taking non-believers as allies ends up with a knife in the back and a nuclear missile aimed to your head, and evil dictators from your own kin taking support from non-believers to shoot you down and rob your cash.

The examples are also many: Assad attacks Muslim children with chemo but get Russia to cover for him, the Sauds butchering their people but get American support -and their crown prince gets to meet the queen of England-, and so on.

Oh well so they are allies with Muslims but "wrong" kind of Muslims - fundies. But if you want examples there is a Muslim country  like Bosnia where they are sort of liberal Muslims who are allies with Christians that live around and it's not a disaster.

But of course there is a question are fundie bloodthirsty Muslims more representative of Quranic Islam than liberal Muslims? You say that fundies are "butchering their people" but in many places Quran commands that same thing, like corporal punishment is promoted in the Quran. Sura 5:38 says, "As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands."
Or Sura 24:2-4 says, "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication are to be flogged with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case."

So it was a battle. And God was telling the believers -and Mohammed- to deliver a good fight, but if the disbelievers at Mecca stop, then Muslims should also stop.

Yeah, only if disbelievers accept Allah because sura 4:91 says, "You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization."
It's very paranoid toward unbelievers sura 4:101, which says, "For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies ... The unbelievers wish ... to assault you in a single rush."

It doesn't seem that Quran is telling Muslims to stop because in many places it tell them to kill, kill, kill

Sura 9:36 says, "Fight the pagans";
sura, 33:61 says, "Wherever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy";
sura 9:5 says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them and seize them."
sura 4:89, "They but wish you would reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they .... But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them."

Or what about this Sura that tells Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends

5:51 "Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors of each other."

I mean are you being good Quran abiding Muslims and not having Jews and Christians as your friends? Not only does this passage display a contempt for Jews and Christians but an appalling ignorance of historical events. All too often Jews and Christians have barely been able to stomach one another's presence.

Yes. God is furious with Jews. Even Jews themselves say that; didn't he cast them into the exile??

Indeed Quran is very antisemitic like Sura 26:55-58 says, "These Israelites are but a small band .... So we expelled them from gardens, springs, treasures, and every kind of honorable position." This intolerance resembles the Christian treatment of the Jews thought history.

[Darinda]

I've learned a lot about Islam in the past few years, and even...sort of...thought about following it, but for me, it comes down to Sharia Law, and some other things that just didn't ''feel right'' to me. When I left Christianity, and started exploring other ideas...I was naturally drawn back to the Abrahamic faiths, because that's all I knew. But, now, I'm spiritual, believe in God, without all the bells and whistles of religion. I feel free, in a way, that I didn't feel when following religion. Islam just seems to have the same restrictive nature as does Christianity, in my opinion.

Having said that, learning that I'm part middle eastern last year, (my dad never told me until last year), definitely makes me wonder who on my paternal grandfather's side was Muslim, I'd imagine there's a heritage there of Muslims that I'll never know anything about, which intrigues me.

You have two main sources that Muslims use to draw the religion:
1-The Quran
2- The Hadith books

The Quran is believed to be the word of God that was written when Prophet Mohammed was alive, while the Hadiths are written about 250 after the death of the prophet. They are documents of rumors about his era.

Sharia law is derived from the Hadith. Lots of negative laws exist only in the Hadith (like stoning and killing homosexuals).
Eliminate the Hadith; and the religion becomes very different from the negative picture sharia law presents.

Stop with your lies already, both the quran and hadiths were written a long time after the passing of Mo.

[Mystic]

Fake Messiah, careful with translations.

[Fake Messiah]

Fake Messiah, careful with translations.

Oh I see I woke up the dead. LOL

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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Yes. That's true. Taking non-believers as allies is a disaster, they rarely take Muslims seriously, and frankly they use the weaknesses of Islamic populations in a very obvious ways. If you want historical examples I can list them to you; but the last of them was what the British Empire did to its Muslim allies after WW1, which led to the nightmare of Israel.

The examples are many. Trump and his raids on Arab oil money is another. Taking non-believers as allies ends up with a knife in the back and a nuclear missile aimed to your head, and evil dictators from your own kin taking support from non-believers to shoot you down and rob your cash.

The examples are also many: Assad attacks Muslim children with chemo but get Russia to cover for him, the Sauds butchering their people but get American support -and their crown prince gets to meet the queen of England-, and so on.

Oh well so they are allies with Muslims but "wrong" kind of Muslims - fundies. But if you want examples there is a Muslim country  like Bosnia where they are sort of liberal Muslims who are allies with Christians that live around and it's not a disaster.

But of course there is a question are fundie bloodthirsty Muslims more representative of Quranic Islam than liberal Muslims? You say that fundies are "butchering their people" but in many places Quran commands that same thing, like corporal punishment is promoted in the Quran. Sura 5:38 says, "As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands."
Or Sura 24:2-4 says, "The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication are to be flogged with a hundred stripes: let not compassion move you in their case."

So it was a battle. And God was telling the believers -and Mohammed- to deliver a good fight, but if the disbelievers at Mecca stop, then Muslims should also stop.

Yeah, only if disbelievers accept Allah because sura 4:91 says, "You will find others who wish to obtain security from you and [to] obtain security from their people. Every time they are returned to [the influence of] disbelief, they fall back into it. So if they do not withdraw from you or offer you peace or restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you overtake them. And those - We have made for you against them a clear authorization."
It's very paranoid toward unbelievers sura 4:101, which says, "For the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies ... The unbelievers wish ... to assault you in a single rush."

It doesn't seem that Quran is telling Muslims to stop because in many places it tell them to kill, kill, kill

Sura 9:36 says, "Fight the pagans";
sura, 33:61 says, "Wherever they are found, they shall be seized and slain without mercy";
sura 9:5 says, "Fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them and seize them."
sura 4:89, "They but wish you would reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing as they .... But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them."

Or what about this Sura that tells Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends

5:51 "Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors of each other."

I mean are you being good Quran abiding Muslims and not having Jews and Christians as your friends? Not only does this passage display a contempt for Jews and Christians but an appalling ignorance of historical events. All too often Jews and Christians have barely been able to stomach one another's presence.

Yes. God is furious with Jews. Even Jews themselves say that; didn't he cast them into the exile??

---

Indeed Quran is very antisemitic like Sura 26:55-58 says, "These Israelites are but a small band .... So we expelled them from gardens, springs, treasures, and every kind of honorable position." This intolerance resembles the Christian treatment of the Jews thought history.

Jews and muslims have historically collaborated against the Christians.

The Jewish Babylonian Talmud is bigoted against the Gentiles.  

The New Testament is somewhat bigoted against the Jews.  

The Old Testament is bigoted against the Gentiles.

[WinterHold]

OP: That it exists as a creation of man (the same as any other religion). That some of the believers are using it to manipulate other believers to commit racism, violence and atrocities against other believers and nonbelievers alike. And that the religion itself can be used to falsely justify these actions. 

Maybe this was stated earlier, read very few of the other responses.

The problem then is with the manipulators, those who listen to them too.

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I don't think all religions are the same; it's innate capacity that there are huge differences in the sentences of each religion, and the demands it asks from its followers.

That's what I said.

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No. You said:

Same here but some religions are definitely worse than others.

I have one issue with all of them: They're all untrue.

But, extremist Jainism, for instance, is hardly on par with extremist Islam or Extremist Christianity. Some religions definitely cause more harm and do more damage than others.

Here is your comment, too:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-55130-p...pid1764735

? Please take discussions more seriously and take responsibility for what you said.
Otherwise; don't discuss.

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"most damage"?

I think that is very unfair. World War 2 -which claimed the life of almost 1000000 people- did not witness a single Muslim frontier; the hairy situation humanity is in now is because of the west and china, and their insane industrial cycle, atomic bombs are the real threat, and they are the specialty of non-Muslims.

WW2 claimed more than 1,000,000 people, try 12,000,000+, of all "types of people".

Northern Africa & the middle east were NOT on the muslim frontier during WW2!? I'd almost pay to see one of your history books from your school to see what you've been reading.

I almost agree with you on the text I didn't bold, almost...razor thin. 

I stay at the low part of the estimation so I don't get accused with exaggeration. Keeping Arabia out of the debate in WW2 has to do with its theater being so distant from the heavy combat. WW2 to me is the European theater and Eastern Asia.

Razor thin agreeing is better than nothing at all

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You.  You;re my problem with islam, Atlass.  I see you, and I immediately know that it isn;t for me.

Thank you. I am so flattered.

[Mystic]

Fake Messiah, careful with translations.

Oh I see I woke up the dead. LOL

Regarding verse 5:51 do you know possible alternate meanings to "Awliya"?

[WinterHold]

Arab culture, sans islam...would be an improvement.  Islam isn;t a requirement for the tasty food.  No more than vile christerism is a requirement for southern comfort food.  Gumbo has no dependency on the divine sanction of institutional racism, for example.

Imma cook gold cost shrimp on the grill here, in a few minutes, without any gold coast evangelism.

You mean to go back in time 1400 years, to the dark ages of Arabia right before Islam?
Actually; after WW1, Arabs did go back to the era before Islam, all the dictators ruling Arabia now were brought to power by the British empire to serve western interest in the region, and replace the Islamic Ottoman caliphate.

So the crap you see now is actually what Arab culture (without Islam) is.

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I don't wish to join any religion. But most of the time I don't think of Islam too much. If I ran in into a US Muslim, chances are good they wouldn't be too extreme of a fundamentalist. It's super rural here. If we have Muslims I doubt they broadcast it any more than I would broadcast being an Atheist.

From what I've seen of Atlass, I doubt he would be for women needing guardians to go outside or to not be able to drive. Or the executions of gays, bisexuals, and Atheists.

Now the fact that in these countries this stuff is often uniform, is terrible.

I should note though that the execution of gays is not carried out but in Iran; and homosexuality is very very widespread; see this report from the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/23811826