assisted suicide vs suicide prevention

[MasterX]

It can't be more clear than that. If you condone suicide of those you know, you're culpable.

So, I think you are saying:

1) Suicide is morally wrong.
2) Anyone who says "suicide is okay" to someone contemplating it is also morally wrong.

I disagree with both. A person has a right (and, let's be frank, the privilege) to take their own life if they so choose. If someone else with whom they are associated with agrees with this decision, that is also their right. I fail to see where crime and culpability enter into it.

EDIT: Oh, and welcome to the forums

1) I think suicide is wrong morally, it's a selfish act that hurts people around you, which is not a moral thing to do, neither is it moral to take your life while not terminally ill or something similar.
2) But you just said below you don't consider suicide wrong so this is kind of self-refuting here to say that you don't think it's moral to tell them suicide is okay...

They have the right, doesn't mean it was right to do or told it's a privilege. The people around them friends/family who knew before hand that did nothing I feel hold some responsibility, but ultimately it's on the person who did it. I'm not saying condoning this is an actual legal crime, but to me it's immoral to do nothing, if that makes sense. An extreme example is if you tell someone to kill themselves online, you can be charged with a crime if they do it.

Also thanks for the welcome, good to meet ya.

---

Condoning suicide is complicity in the crime.

No.

Complicity with a little c.

Not that they actually hold equal share or that condoning it is an actual crime. Just to clarify.

[vulcanlogician]

1) I think suicide is wrong morally, it's a selfish act that hurts people around you, which is not a moral thing to do, neither is it moral to take your life while not terminally ill or something similar.
2) But you just said below you don't consider suicide wrong so this is kind of self-refuting here to say that you don't think it's moral to tell them suicide is okay...

They have the right, doesn't mean it was right to do or told it's a privilege. The people around them friends/family who knew before hand that did nothing I feel hold some responsibility, but ultimately it's on the person who did it. I'm not saying condoning this is an actual legal crime, but to me it's immoral to do nothing, if that makes sense. An extreme example is if you tell someone to kill themselves online, you can be charged with a crime if they do it.

Also thanks for the welcome, good to meet ya.

Below is an actual suicide note from someone. It doesn't appear that this woman's motivations were selfish. Not everyone's situation is simple and open to such generalized moral judgments.

---

Dear David,
After six weeks of streptomycin shots and a total of eleven weeks of rest in bed we have conclusive proof that the ulcers in my bronchial tubes have not healed. The short period of the streptomycin inhalations could not have brought on the results if the ulceration had even partially healed. To try further would mean many more months of bed rest — more shots and inhalations — I can’t remain at the hospital for the winter months and a prolonged stay at a rest home is out of the question. I did some figuring — the weekly rate there — the amount of streptomycin for shots and inhalations plus the doctor’s weekly visits would total to over $200 a week — I can’t bleed my family for any such amount of money, and that means that as soon as the money I have in my checking account runs out I would have to return home — back to the same conditions which caused me to go downhill so steadily. It’s a vicious circle from which there seems no escape. I could of course use up the money from the sale of our furnishings and silver as well as some I put aside for the furnishing of our home — but all it put together would be like a drop ion the bucket — besides I am now convinced that my condition is too chronic and therefore a cure doubtful.

All of a sudden all will and determination to fight on has left me. I have long ago prepared myself for the time when I reached the end of the trail. I feel calm and at peace and grateful that I can go to sleep painlessly. I feel justified in terminating a life which no longer holds any hope of having the essentials which make it worth living — I did desperately want to get well — I still had much to live for — hope for recovery — hope of a reunion with the children — work which I loved and which could have given me financial security and great satisfaction. But it was not to be — I am defeated and exhausted physically and emotionally.

Please tell the children that I loved them always and that my love has never faltered. I grieve that I could not have had the joy of being close to our babies, but that is no one’s fault. Thank God they are well — with my passing all menace to their wellbeing will have disappeared.

I want you to know that I have a deep affection for you. I am deeply grateful for all your kindness. I wish I could have made a happier life for you. It was mostly my fault, please forgive me.

Please write to Fran and Tony and to Marilyn and Jim and tell them that my love and gratitude could not possibly be put into words. Their generosity, devotion, love and tact made it possible for me to accept their financial help over a long period of time. I wish with all my heart that they might have been better rewarded — All of you, my dear ones, I ask to keep my memory alive in your hearts — To live on in the hearts of our dear ones is all that I can conceive of immortality. Please think of me kindly. Remember that which was good and lovely in our relationship and forgive me for the many mistakes I have made. Now that it is all said I feel at peace.

I want Dr. B. to officiate at my funeral. I think Joe would like to have him with him at that time.

---

https://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/0...ide-notes/

[Amarok]

1) I think suicide is wrong morally, it's a selfish act that hurts people around you, which is not a moral thing to do, neither is it moral to take your life while not terminally ill or something similar.
2) But you just said below you don't consider suicide wrong so this is kind of self-refuting here to say that you don't think it's moral to tell them suicide is okay...

They have the right, doesn't mean it was right to do or told it's a privilege. The people around them friends/family who knew before hand that did nothing I feel hold some responsibility, but ultimately it's on the person who did it. I'm not saying condoning this is an actual legal crime, but to me it's immoral to do nothing, if that makes sense. An extreme example is if you tell someone to kill themselves online, you can be charged with a crime if they do it.

Also thanks for the welcome, good to meet ya.

Below is an actual suicide note from someone. It doesn't appear that this woman's motivations were selfish. Not everyone's situation is simple and open to such generalized moral judgments.

---

Dear David,
After six weeks of streptomycin shots and a total of eleven weeks of rest in bed we have conclusive proof that the ulcers in my bronchial tubes have not healed. The short period of the streptomycin inhalations could not have brought on the results if the ulceration had even partially healed. To try further would mean many more months of bed rest — more shots and inhalations — I can’t remain at the hospital for the winter months and a prolonged stay at a rest home is out of the question. I did some figuring — the weekly rate there — the amount of streptomycin for shots and inhalations plus the doctor’s weekly visits would total to over $200 a week — I can’t bleed my family for any such amount of money, and that means that as soon as the money I have in my checking account runs out I would have to return home — back to the same conditions which caused me to go downhill so steadily. It’s a vicious circle from which there seems no escape. I could of course use up the money from the sale of our furnishings and silver as well as some I put aside for the furnishing of our home — but all it put together would be like a drop ion the bucket — besides I am now convinced that my condition is too chronic and therefore a cure doubtful.

All of a sudden all will and determination to fight on has left me. I have long ago prepared myself for the time when I reached the end of the trail. I feel calm and at peace and grateful that I can go to sleep painlessly. I feel justified in terminating a life which no longer holds any hope of having the essentials which make it worth living — I did desperately want to get well — I still had much to live for — hope for recovery — hope of a reunion with the children — work which I loved and which could have given me financial security and great satisfaction. But it was not to be — I am defeated and exhausted physically and emotionally.

Please tell the children that I loved them always and that my love has never faltered. I grieve that I could not have had the joy of being close to our babies, but that is no one’s fault. Thank God they are well — with my passing all menace to their wellbeing will have disappeared.

I want you to know that I have a deep affection for you. I am deeply grateful for all your kindness. I wish I could have made a happier life for you. It was mostly my fault, please forgive me.

Please write to Fran and Tony and to Marilyn and Jim and tell them that my love and gratitude could not possibly be put into words. Their generosity, devotion, love and tact made it possible for me to accept their financial help over a long period of time. I wish with all my heart that they might have been better rewarded — All of you, my dear ones, I ask to keep my memory alive in your hearts — To live on in the hearts of our dear ones is all that I can conceive of immortality. Please think of me kindly. Remember that which was good and lovely in our relationship and forgive me for the many mistakes I have made. Now that it is all said I feel at peace.

I want Dr. B. to officiate at my funeral. I think Joe would like to have him with him at that time.

---

https://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/0...ide-notes/

Vul stop you might actually make him see moral ambiguity

And agree it not always selfish it depends on the situation

[Rev. Rye]

Ah. I see your point. It’s a shame Perseus Project hasn’t bothered to put up an English translation for that particular work.

[MasterX]

1) I think suicide is wrong morally, it's a selfish act that hurts people around you, which is not a moral thing to do, neither is it moral to take your life while not terminally ill or something similar.
2) But you just said below you don't consider suicide wrong so this is kind of self-refuting here to say that you don't think it's moral to tell them suicide is okay...

They have the right, doesn't mean it was right to do or told it's a privilege. The people around them friends/family who knew before hand that did nothing I feel hold some responsibility, but ultimately it's on the person who did it. I'm not saying condoning this is an actual legal crime, but to me it's immoral to do nothing, if that makes sense. An extreme example is if you tell someone to kill themselves online, you can be charged with a crime if they do it.

Also thanks for the welcome, good to meet ya.

Below is an actual suicide note from someone. It doesn't appear that this woman's motivations were selfish. Not everyone's situation is simple and open to such generalized moral judgments.

---

Dear David,
After six weeks of streptomycin shots and a total of eleven weeks of rest in bed we have conclusive proof that the ulcers in my bronchial tubes have not healed. The short period of the streptomycin inhalations could not have brought on the results if the ulceration had even partially healed. To try further would mean many more months of bed rest — more shots and inhalations — I can’t remain at the hospital for the winter months and a prolonged stay at a rest home is out of the question. I did some figuring — the weekly rate there — the amount of streptomycin for shots and inhalations plus the doctor’s weekly visits would total to over $200 a week — I can’t bleed my family for any such amount of money, and that means that as soon as the money I have in my checking account runs out I would have to return home — back to the same conditions which caused me to go downhill so steadily. It’s a vicious circle from which there seems no escape. I could of course use up the money from the sale of our furnishings and silver as well as some I put aside for the furnishing of our home — but all it put together would be like a drop ion the bucket — besides I am now convinced that my condition is too chronic and therefore a cure doubtful.

All of a sudden all will and determination to fight on has left me. I have long ago prepared myself for the time when I reached the end of the trail. I feel calm and at peace and grateful that I can go to sleep painlessly. I feel justified in terminating a life which no longer holds any hope of having the essentials which make it worth living — I did desperately want to get well — I still had much to live for — hope for recovery — hope of a reunion with the children — work which I loved and which could have given me financial security and great satisfaction. But it was not to be — I am defeated and exhausted physically and emotionally.

Please tell the children that I loved them always and that my love has never faltered. I grieve that I could not have had the joy of being close to our babies, but that is no one’s fault. Thank God they are well — with my passing all menace to their wellbeing will have disappeared.

I want you to know that I have a deep affection for you. I am deeply grateful for all your kindness. I wish I could have made a happier life for you. It was mostly my fault, please forgive me.

Please write to Fran and Tony and to Marilyn and Jim and tell them that my love and gratitude could not possibly be put into words. Their generosity, devotion, love and tact made it possible for me to accept their financial help over a long period of time. I wish with all my heart that they might have been better rewarded — All of you, my dear ones, I ask to keep my memory alive in your hearts — To live on in the hearts of our dear ones is all that I can conceive of immortality. Please think of me kindly. Remember that which was good and lovely in our relationship and forgive me for the many mistakes I have made. Now that it is all said I feel at peace.

I want Dr. B. to officiate at my funeral. I think Joe would like to have him with him at that time.

---

https://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/0...ide-notes/

This is a case of terminal illness which I hold no ill will against someone deciding to go at that point. I thought I said that?

---

Below is an actual suicide note from someone. It doesn't appear that this woman's motivations were selfish. Not everyone's situation is simple and open to such generalized moral judgments.

---

---

https://theholydark.wordpress.com/2012/0...ide-notes/

Vul stop you might actually make him see moral ambiguity

And agree it not always selfish it depends on the situation

What? I already conceded that provable terminal illness is an excuse to commit suicide. LOL then you agree at the end there is selfish suicide, you clearly didn't read what I said.

[Amarok]

What? I already conceded that provable terminal illness is an excuse to commit suicide. LOL then you agree at the end there is selfish suicide, you clearly didn't read what I said.

Lol reread my comment

[MasterX]

What? I already conceded that provable terminal illness is an excuse to commit suicide. LOL then you agree at the end there is selfish suicide, you clearly didn't read what I said.

Lol reread my comment

Yeah, you're claiming I don't have moral ambiguity on this subject, which is a straw man and intellectually dishonest. The end.

[vulcanlogician]

This is a case of terminal illness which I hold no ill will against someone deciding to go at that point. I thought I said that?

Sure. But what say you about the the remarks from Seneca quoted here?

[Amarok]

Yeah, you're claiming I don't have moral ambiguity on this subject, 

Never said that i said "Vul stop you might actually make him see moral ambiguity" nowhere is the statement am i  saying you have no level of ambiguity at all just lack of it not absence in the complete . If i was going to say that i would have said "Vul stop you might actually make him doubt his moral absolutism " or somthing along those lines .

which is a straw man and intellectually dishonest.

It would be if that's what i had said nor implied

The end.

Yes of your bullshit accusations then yes

[Amarok]

Here's a bit of Stoic philosophy that I find relevant to the subject:

You may consider that the same thing happens to us: life has carried some men with the greatest rapidity to the harbour, the harbour they were bound to reach even if they tarried on the way, while others it has fretted and harassed. To such a life, as you are aware, one should not always cling. For mere living is not a good, but living well. Accordingly, the wise man will live as long as he ought, not as long as he can. He will mark in what place, with whom, and how he is to conduct his existence, and what he is about to do. He always reflects concerning the quality, and not the quantity, of his life. As soon as there are many events in his life that give him trouble and disturb his peace of mind, he sets himself free. And this privilege is his, not only when the crisis is upon him, but as soon as Fortune seems to be playing him false; then he looks about carefully and sees whether he ought, or ought not, to end his life on that account. He holds that it makes no difference to him whether his taking-off be natural or self-inflicted, whether it comes later or earlier. He does not regard it with fear, as if it were a great loss; for no man can lose very much when but a driblet remains. It is not a question of dying earlier or later, but of dying well or ill. And dying well means escape from the danger of living ill.

https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=1999

Always loved the Stoic so poetic