Substitutionary Atonement! WTF?

[ignoramus]

How can any theist be optimisitc about anything when they're born in sin and destined to hell anyway?

Because they're silly enough to play by someone else's rules, that's why...

[Haipule]

Who the fuck comes up with this shite!
I like it, but only because it sounds like divine legal gobbledygook. lol!

"Yeah, I know I killed all those people your honour, because I'm a sick fuck, but hey, here, take my 90 year old father instead and we'll just call it even!
  (*whispers* shhhh... don't tell anyone but the old man's got cancer and will be dead anyway soon!)

And people really believe God would come up with stuff like this? When he can make anything happen anyway? Pretty bloody convoluted isn't it?

Obviously it wasn't God as it wasn't "invented" until the middle ages (below).

As an ignoramus, I'm genuinely curious now to know what core beliefs in the current modern day bible are actually original? 

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/artic...atonement/

Skeptics commonly criticize core Christian beliefs by claiming that they were not really held by the earliest Christians. Instead, we are told, these beliefs were invented post facto by the institutional church.

The classic example of such an argument has to do with the divinity of Jesus. The earliest followers of Jesus didn’t really believe that Jesus was divine, this argument goes; it was only the later institutional church, under political pressure from Emperor Constantine, that insisted Jesus must have divine status. Thus, some argue, the belief that Jesus is God is not really, well, Christian.

Substitutionary Atonement

This same sort of argument has also been applied to other doctrines, particularly the substitutionary nature of the atonement. Critical scholars, led by the classic work of Gustaf Aulén, have long argued that the earliest Christians did not believe that Christ died as a substitute for sinners. Instead, they say, these Christians believed what is known as the “Christus victor” view of the atonement—the idea that Jesus’s death on the cross (and resurrection) conquered the Devil and other forces that held people in bondage. On this view, Christ did not die in place of rebellious sinners but instead rescued victims from a fallen world

Great post Eg! Yeah, Xtians are full of shit! The Scriptural revelation is that God became a man in the person of Jesus. IOW's, Jesus is God but was never so before He was born. Also IOW's, whatever happened before His birth was 100% God/Lord and NOT Jesus! Also, IOW's: God became a man named Yeshua(Hebrew), iEsous(Greek), Jesus(English--since the mid 15th century when the "J" letter and sound was introduced: before that: Yesus)! 


You see, theologians say that Jesus is God and has always existed, even before He was even born! Such are "trinity" doctrines.


God/Jesus, did NOT die as a "substitute". It was only necessary to pay an enacted ransom payment(atonement) because, "Death reigned from Adam(caused, and Only caused by the parabasis of Adam), until Moses(when the animal offerings, instituted by Moses, set the things of death, and it's rulership, aside until the proper time of the true offering), which was, apparently, God death!


Well, God can't die! So God became a man, in the person of Jesus, to die and pay that ransom so we all could be free from the tyranny of death--Satan's plan! However, God's plan has always been life. God found a way! 


You know what's totally cool? Paul said the He was raised because of our subsequent rightification! And therefore, had no reason to be dead! He was raised the third day because we were all declared as PERECT--Just like Adam before his parabasis(motion against a fixed point or standard)! 


Satan now is COMPLETELY dysfunctional!


Well then, party on Ig! It's now our turn!!!!

[Chad32]

Actually we've improved quite a bit over a long time. If anything has been holding us back, it's religions such as christianity. I don't see any plan of your god coming to fruition. What exactly is this game plan? from what I hear, he wants everyone to get into heaven, yet the road to heaven is narrow. So that part of the plan isn't coming to fruition. The best places in the world tend to be secular social democracies, which is a far cry from what god would want. God doesn't fix problems. He just destroys things until something resembling what he wants comes out temporarily.

Look at his actual track record. He's running heaven, when suddenly a third of the population rebels, and he has to kick them out. He makes Eden, but one disobedient act screws everything up. It gets bad enough that he floods the world, sabe for his chosen eight. 150 years later, they build a tower he doesn't like, so he tears it down. He spends a while having different tribes of people destroyed, which never really fixes the problem. His last attempt is sending Jesus down, who admits that this plan isn't going to get the majority of Humanity into heaven, let alone all of them. If nothing god has done has worked so far, what makes you think it will in the future?

 Society is falling apart across the world, nearly every country lives with the fear and or threat of terrorism, we live on the brink of nuclear war all the time, one little slip could bring us to nuclear disaster. Kids are killing kids at an alarming rate and it seems the world at large has no answer for this, the Christian community does but people just want listen.

You are blind just as the scriptures say of the lost. Here's one for you the scriptures said that Israel would be restore as a nation and it has and the world community was involved. No people have ever been reunite in to country where they were established after 2000 years of being scattered across the world. Yet we have Israel here today, well established and defeating their enemies at every turn. Those examples you listed are all free will choices by people, bad choices that God redirected to have man in the right place for His plan to redeem us. If not for Jesus no gentile would have made it into the Kingdom of God. Millions upon millions are now part of that kingdom and millions upon millions will be added, so it's many millions of time successful, and no matter what you believe you can't change it, unless you are willing for your name to be added to that list.

GC

The world is still vastly improved, even if we haven't gotten to a utopia yet. And typically the worst places in the world? Theocratic dictatorships. The most deeply religious places, even those with high percentages of christians, are not the best countries in the world to be in. so no, christians don't have an answer that others aren't listening to. Usually they're the ones holding back progress and prosperity.

Didn't that prophesy say King David would rule the country too? When is he coming back? The Israel prophesy isn't much better than the one about "there will be wars, and rumors of wars".

Millions upon millions. In a history that involves billions upon billions. That's not an impressive track record.

[Godscreated]

 Society is falling apart across the world, nearly every country lives with the fear and or threat of terrorism, we live on the brink of nuclear war all the time, one little slip could bring us to nuclear disaster. 

-and in each case the abrahamics are up to their necks in every bit of that.  Maybe if yall would just stop..the earth wouldn;t seem so shitty to you?

Stop what? Christians are trying to keep this world together and the non-believers want to continue to open the world up to freedoms man has no use for other than self pleasure that brings harm to man.

GC

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 Society is falling apart across the world, nearly every country lives with the fear and or threat of terrorism, we live on the brink of nuclear war all the time, one little slip could bring us to nuclear disaster. Kids are killing kids at an alarming rate and it seems the world at large has no answer for this, the Christian community does but people just want listen.

You are blind just as the scriptures say of the lost. Here's one for you the scriptures said that Israel would be restore as a nation and it has and the world community was involved. No people have ever been reunite in to country where they were established after 2000 years of being scattered across the world. Yet we have Israel here today, well established and defeating their enemies at every turn. Those examples you listed are all free will choices by people, bad choices that God redirected to have man in the right place for His plan to redeem us. If not for Jesus no gentile would have made it into the Kingdom of God. Millions upon millions are now part of that kingdom and millions upon millions will be added, so it's many millions of time successful, and no matter what you believe you can't change it, unless you are willing for your name to be added to that list.

GC

The world is still vastly improved, even if we haven't gotten to a utopia yet. And typically the worst places in the world? Theocratic dictatorships. The most deeply religious places, even those with high percentages of christians, are not the best countries in the world to be in. so no, christians don't have an answer that others aren't listening to. Usually they're the ones holding back progress and prosperity.

Didn't that prophesy say King David would rule the country too? When is he coming back? The Israel prophesy isn't much better than the one about "there will be wars, and rumors of wars".

Millions upon millions. In a history that involves billions upon billions. That's not an impressive track record.

You spout how Christians are holding the world back yet you never give any proof, got proof present it if not stay quite. Really what countries would that be? Yes we do have the answer that the world is turning it's back on, just as the Israelites did long ago and you can see what happened to them. God is the answer, Jesus has opened up our ability to come before the Holy God of the Bible. 

No the scriptures do not say King David will rule again, it's your lack of biblical understanding that causes you to believe whatever is thrown at you. By the way war is more prevalent now than it's ever been and rumors of war are heard all the time.
Sure beats zero no doesn't it and one day if you do not change you will wish you would have been one of those millions.

GC

[Angrboda]

-and in each case the abrahamics are up to their necks in every bit of that.  Maybe if yall would just stop..the earth wouldn;t seem so shitty to you?

Stop what? Christians are trying to keep this world together and the non-believers want to continue to open the world up to freedoms man has no use for other than self pleasure that brings harm to man.

GC

"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."
— Nietzsche

[Chad32]

-and in each case the abrahamics are up to their necks in every bit of that.  Maybe if yall would just stop..the earth wouldn;t seem so shitty to you?

Stop what? Christians are trying to keep this world together and the non-believers want to continue to open the world up to freedoms man has no use for other than self pleasure that brings harm to man.

GC

---

The world is still vastly improved, even if we haven't gotten to a utopia yet. And typically the worst places in the world? Theocratic dictatorships. The most deeply religious places, even those with high percentages of christians, are not the best countries in the world to be in. so no, christians don't have an answer that others aren't listening to. Usually they're the ones holding back progress and prosperity.

Didn't that prophesy say King David would rule the country too? When is he coming back? The Israel prophesy isn't much better than the one about "there will be wars, and rumors of wars".

Millions upon millions. In a history that involves billions upon billions. That's not an impressive track record.

You spout how Christians are holding the world back yet you never give any proof, got proof present it if not stay quite. Really what countries would that be? Yes we do have the answer that the world is turning it's back on, just as the Israelites did long ago and you can see what happened to them. God is the answer, Jesus has opened up our ability to come before the Holy God of the Bible. 

No the scriptures do not say King David will rule again, it's your lack of biblical understanding that causes you to believe whatever is thrown at you. By the way war is more prevalent now than it's ever been and rumors of war are heard all the time.
Sure beats zero no doesn't it and one day if you do not change you will wish you would have been one of those millions.

GC

We are just on entirely different wavelengths. I shouldn't need to look up proof that christianity is oppressive at its core, or that secular societies typically do better than theocracies and dictatorships. It should be common knowledge. I don't have anything more to say. You just keep believing what you want. I don't know why I bother getting in these back and forths.

[Godscreated]

You spout how Christians are holding the world back yet you never give any proof, got proof present it if not stay quite. Really what countries would that be? Yes we do have the answer that the world is turning it's back on, just as the Israelites did long ago and you can see what happened to them. God is the answer, Jesus has opened up our ability to come before the Holy God of the Bible. 

No the scriptures do not say King David will rule again, it's your lack of biblical understanding that causes you to believe whatever is thrown at you. By the way war is more prevalent now than it's ever been and rumors of war are heard all the time.
Sure beats zero now doesn't it and one day if you do not change you will wish you would have been one of those millions.

GC

We are just on entirely different wavelengths. I shouldn't need to look up proof that christianity is oppressive at its core, or that secular societies typically do better than theocracies and dictatorships. It should be common knowledge. I don't have anything more to say. You just keep believing what you want. I don't know why I bother getting in these back and forths.

 I live in a country that is predominately Christian and I for one do not want any church running it, it's not the churches place. I can try to implement my moral beliefs into the laws of this country through the law, it is a right given all citizens. So as you can see I do not want a theocracy and certainly not a dictatorship and this should be common knowledge because of all my posts over the years. I really don't know either because by now you should know I will never change my mind, I know the truth and desire it in my life, it's been great for me and I would be stupid to abandon the truth that has changed my life in the most positive way. Maybe if we have another conversation we can try and avoid a back and forth, they do get tiring.

GC

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Stop what? Christians are trying to keep this world together and the non-believers want to continue to open the world up to freedoms man has no use for other than self pleasure that brings harm to man.

GC

"The Christian resolution to find the world ugly and bad has made the world ugly and bad."
— Nietzsche

 Nietzsche is dead and now knows how wrong he was and i'm betting he wish he had listened when God called.
Christians do not have to find the world ugly and bad, it was that long before Christianity, that's exactly why Christ came, to give us something other than the ugly and bad to live our lives in.

GC

[The Grand Nudger]

LOL, threatening a corpse.  This well has no bottom.