Illegal Immigrants

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Pissing on them and putting them in internment camps for forced labor are different things.  I think you need to get your priorities straight.

Slavery is legal in America.

[The Grand Nudger]

  When you start to think what the differences are in federal income tax or healthcare benefits, its clear that while illegal immigrants are paying taxes, they are not nearly paying enough.

Paying enough for -what-.....? If you want this to be a salient point then you;d have to bring about a state of affairs where illegal immigrants received equal services for which those taxes are levied.

Slavery is legal in America.

Not yet, but I understand you'd like to see it made so.

[Amarok]

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I was thinking about the sudden immigration crisis and believe I have a solution. I’d get as many charter buses as I could And when these people show up, load the buses and start driving north. Release them at the Canadian border and make sure they keep going in that direction. Our friends to the north are quick to criticize so if they can do a better job, let them do it!

So your solution is to push your problem onto us .Nope there your immigrants so you're dealing with them and yes were do criticize you when you do shitty things with them .

[Minimalist]

Why do Faux news and right wing politicians have bullshit talking points?

Because they're bullshitters feeding bullshit to fascistic assholes who eat it up because they are too fucking stupid to know better.

[The Grand Nudger]

I think this is one of those occassions that breaks the malice/incompetence rule.  They do know better..it;s just that they desperately want worse.

They understand all of the arguments against treating some group of people poorly - their victimization complex is in overdrive. They just don;t think those reasons are compelling when brown. Nothing is ever cruel or draconian enough when you;re a few shades darker than high yellow. They run a greivance industry, and because of this they need to imagine that everyone else does too. They wish for rahowa, and because of this they imagine that others are equally invested in white genocide.

etc etc etc.

[Minimalist]

With the dickheads we have running things I don't know that this is the country to come to if you want to escape oppression and violence.

[LadyForCamus]

https://www.usnews.com/news/articles/201...s-in-taxes

Immigrants illegally in the U.S. collectively contribute nearly $12 billion each year to state and local tax coffers, according to a new report that challenges recent election cycle rhetoric. 

http://immigrationimpact.com/2017/04/17/...pay-taxes/

Nationwide, undocumented immigrants pay an average of 8 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes, which is higher than the top 1 percent of taxpayers who pay 5.4 percent.

So both articles used the Institute of Taxation & Economic Policy as their sources, I extrapolated some basic info directly from their report on the topic.

• 11 million undocumented immigrants living in the United States as of 2013
  
• Undocumented immigrants contribute significantly to state and local taxes, collectively paying an estimated $11.64 billion a year
  
• Undocumented immigrants nationwide pay on average an estimated 8 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes
  
• Average undocumented family income $30,100
  
• Average size of family unit of undocumented immigrants in the US is 2.29 people
  

Now lets look at the same statistics in regard to the US population:

• 315 million total population in the US in 2013 (304 million if you subtract the amount of illegal immigrants) https://www.census.gov/popclock/
  
• State tax revenue in 2013 was $846.2 billion (keep in mind this does not include local taxes, as was included in taxes paid by illegal immigrants) https://www2.census.gov/govs/statetax/2013stcreport.pdf
  
• 80% of US households pay over 8.7%, interesting fact the 20% of the population with incomes between $19,000 - $35,000 (within the same range as illegal immigrant family households) pays on average about 9.9% in state taxes. https://itep.org/whopays/
  
• Average household income in 2014 was $73,298 https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/per.../93002252/
  
• Average size of US household in 2013 is 2.54 people.https://www.statista.com/statistics/1836...in-the-us/
  

So with both these data sets we can start to dial in and see the differences:

• Illegal immigrants pay on average $1,058.18 per capita.  US citizens pay on average $2,686.35 per capita.
  
• Average tax rate for illegal immigrants is 3.52% per capita, and 8.05% per household.  Average tax rate for US citizens is 3.66% per capita, and 9.30% per household.
  

Now lets keep in mind that the above information might be a little bit skewed for a few reasons.  One being that more than 60% of the US population makes more than the average illegal immigrant household.  Lets also not forget that the we are comparing illegal immigrant state & local taxes to just state taxes for US citizens.  I also cited this source in my claim that 80% of US households pay over 8.7% in state taxes, and 20% of the population that was in the same income bracket pays on average 9.9%.



As i mentioned before, the difference we see does not even include the local taxes that American citizens pay.  That means that Americans in the same income bracket are paying 25% more on average in just state taxes, against what illegal immigrants are paying for in both state and local taxes.  When you start to think what the differences are in federal income tax or healthcare benefits, its clear that while illegal immigrants are paying taxes, they are not nearly paying enough.


Now I am all for making sure the people that earn more pay their fair share in taxes.  I'd be in favor of closing tax loopholes, abolishing income tax and significantly raising sales tax instead.  But that's another discussi

If you acknowledge that illegal immigrants do in-fact pay taxes, why did you assert in your post before it that they don’t?  IA was merely fact-checking your false claim that illegal immigrants “don’t pay taxes”.  Now you’re moving your goal posts to, “enough taxes”.  And, enough for what?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

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  When you start to think what the differences are in federal income tax or healthcare benefits, its clear that while illegal immigrants are paying taxes, they are not nearly paying enough.

Paying enough for -what-.....?  If you want this to be a salient point then you;d have to bring about a state of affairs where illegal immigrants received equal services for which those taxes are levied.

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Wyrd of Gawd pid='1779999' dateline='1529779979']
Slavery is legal in America.

Not yet, but I understand you'd like to see it made so.

Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution

"The Thirteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution abolished slavery and involuntary servitude, except as punishment for a crime. In Congress, it was passed by the Senate on April 8, 1864, and by the House on January 31, 1865. The amendment was ratified by the required number of states on December 6, 1865.More at Wikipedia"


Text of Section 6:

Slavery and Involuntary Servitude

"There shall be no slavery in this state; nor involuntary servitude, unless for the punishment of crime."
https://ballotpedia.org/Article_I,_Ohio_Constitution

If you don't want to be a slave then stay out of prison (or concentration camps).

[FlyingNarwhal]

There's a lot of different factors if your talking improving Mexico's infrastructure.  One thing we could definitely do to help would be ending the War on Drugs.  That would go a long way to help dismantling the cartels in Mexico and in turn make it safer.  We've also already tried working a deal with Mexico where we would send immigrants to them.  They'll take back their own citizens but they won't take immigrants from other Central & South American countries.

Spending money on another country's infrastructure is a step too far though in my opinion, especially one that shares a border with us.  The amount of money it would cost to make significant changes that would have some kind of impact would be astronomical.  We're also talking about creating jobs in Mexico, if you're doing it right the US would basically be spending money to potentially have businesses leave the US or at the very least make us less competitive on a global scale.

You have to think, the whole reason people are angry about illegal immigrants coming to this country is because they are taking American jobs and not paying taxes.  What your proposing is that the US should help to move American jobs to Mexico and we pay for it in our taxes as well.  It would probably face way more opposition then illegal immigration already does.

Why we send billions in foreign aid all around the world? Mexico already has a very aggressive plan for rebuilding their infrastructure but because they lack funding and are so underdeveloped it takes a very long time to get these programs completed, the US could easily invest in Mexico and Central America. Instead we are trying to build a 70 billion dollar border wall that costs 150 million dollars per year to maintain, and it wont stop immigrants from trying to get into the US.

Okay Illegal immigrants are not stealing jobs, because business owners could choose to hire american citizens. Anyone who has ever worked a job knows that when you apply for a job you are asked about citizenship and required to produce identification. Illegal immigrants do pay taxes, someone else has already posted those statistics so I won't do it again.

Also I did not propose that "we move American jobs to Mexico and pay for it through our taxes", I said nothing even close to that. What I propose is that we invest in Mexico's infrastructure to secure our borders rather than trying to build a ridiculous wall.

Yes we send billions in foreign aid, but that is completely different then building a country's infrastructure.  We spend about $50 billion in foreign aid, a country's infrastructure costs trillions.  Think of US foreign aid similarly to how corporations donate to charities or political candidates, there is typically some kind of benefit in doing so.  A corporation might donate to a charity as a tax write off or drum up good will amongst the public, and they donate to political candidates so they can hold some kind of sway over the candidate and future policy.  That's how we dispense of foreign aid, it's not just out of the kindness of our hearts.  It's to make us look good, promote favorable trade, and gain allies.  A large chunk of our foreign aid goes to Israel, so that we can maintain a close ally in the middle east.

Border wall would be expensive, I don't support it, I think most Americans don't support it, and I don't think it will ever get passed.  I truly believe Trump talked about a wall to pander to his base.

I work in the construction supplies market, I deal with illegal immigrants on a regular basis.  A lot of them are good customers of mine, so trust me when I say I hold no personal qualms against them.  There are absolutely ways around being hired as an illegal immigrant.  Most of the time it's employers simply paying in cash under the table, which is illegal for both parties.  The employers typically avoids paying benefits amongst other things and usually can also pay their illegal employee less.  This gives the illegal immigrant a competitive edge against a US worker.  Some illegal immigrants pay taxes, not all of them.  I already extrapolated the data in a previous post so I don't really want to go into full detail here.

You're not promoting that we directly move jobs from the US to Mexico, but that could very well be the outcome, especially given the fact that it is our neighboring country.  For example San Diego, CA is 30 minutes from the border, and manufacturing is a decent part of their economy.  If we pay for Mexico's infrastructure, they could in turn offer a lower corporate tax rate because they didn't have to spend the money to build the infrastructure that brings businesses there.  In a sense, we've subsidized there ability to be more competitive in getting business to choose their country over ours.  So while there may be less illegal immigrants coming to the US, we're still seeing a detriment to jobs because they have gone to Mexico instead.  We're also not getting paid taxes from those business, and to top it all off we paid the bill for it to happen.

[Mr.wizard]

Why we send billions in foreign aid all around the world? Mexico already has a very aggressive plan for rebuilding their infrastructure but because they lack funding and are so underdeveloped it takes a very long time to get these programs completed, the US could easily invest in Mexico and Central America. Instead we are trying to build a 70 billion dollar border wall that costs 150 million dollars per year to maintain, and it wont stop immigrants from trying to get into the US.

Okay Illegal immigrants are not stealing jobs, because business owners could choose to hire american citizens. Anyone who has ever worked a job knows that when you apply for a job you are asked about citizenship and required to produce identification. Illegal immigrants do pay taxes, someone else has already posted those statistics so I won't do it again.

Also I did not propose that "we move American jobs to Mexico and pay for it through our taxes", I said nothing even close to that. What I propose is that we invest in Mexico's infrastructure to secure our borders rather than trying to build a ridiculous wall.

Yes we send billions in foreign aid, but that is completely different then building a country's infrastructure.  We spend about $50 billion in foreign aid, a country's infrastructure costs trillions.  Think of US foreign aid similarly to how corporations donate to charities or political candidates, there is typically some kind of benefit in doing so.  A corporation might donate to a charity as a tax write off or drum up good will amongst the public, and they donate to political candidates so they can hold some kind of sway over the candidate and future policy.  That's how we dispense of foreign aid, it's not just out of the kindness of our hearts.  It's to make us look good, promote favorable trade, and gain allies.  A large chunk of our foreign aid goes to Israel, so that we can maintain a close ally in the middle east.

Border wall would be expensive, I don't support it, I think most Americans don't support it, and I don't think it will ever get passed.  I truly believe Trump talked about a wall to pander to his base.

I work in the construction supplies market, I deal with illegal immigrants on a regular basis.  A lot of them are good customers of mine, so trust me when I say I hold no personal qualms against them.  There are absolutely ways around being hired as an illegal immigrant.  Most of the time it's employers simply paying in cash under the table, which is illegal for both parties.  The employers typically avoids paying benefits amongst other things and usually can also pay their illegal employee less.  This gives the illegal immigrant a competitive edge against a US worker.  Some illegal immigrants pay taxes, not all of them.  I already extrapolated the data in a previous post so I don't really want to go into full detail here.

You're not promoting that we directly move jobs from the US to Mexico, but that could very well be the outcome, especially given the fact that it is our neighboring country.  For example San Diego, CA is 30 minutes from the border, and manufacturing is a decent part of their economy.  If we pay for Mexico's infrastructure, they could in turn offer a lower corporate tax rate because they didn't have to spend the money to build the infrastructure that brings businesses there.  In a sense, we've subsidized there ability to be more competitive in getting business to choose their country over ours.  So while there may be less illegal immigrants coming to the US, we're still seeing a detriment to jobs because they have gone to Mexico instead.  We're also not getting paid taxes from those business, and to top it all off we paid the bill for it to happen.

Who said anything about building their infrastructure, I said Invest in their infrastructure, they are already building their infrastructure, they just need some funding help to speed up the process. This doesn't require us to build anything or send any jobs to Mexico, a strong Mexico would be beneficial to the US.