Posts: 6851
Threads: 76
Joined: October 17, 2012
Reputation:
31
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 7:26 am
(August 17, 2018 at 3:55 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I don't think the motive of the cake should matter at all. It's probably true that the customer who goes to that specific bakeshop is trying to stir shit up, but so is the bake shop.
Motive for having a cake should be irrelevant. I was split on this issue before, because I don't necessarily think you should be able to force goods and services from unwilling people, but what, do you need to fill out a correct form to get a cake? The motive of you ordering a cake shouldn't matter. I'm almost certain these people would deny Atheist weddings a cake. What else could be more against their religious beliefs? I grew up in a small town with a single baker, local monopolies like that exist everywhere and that means that whole groups of people will be denied access to certain goods or services. Do we need a seperate baker for each religion in each town? Seems ridiculous.
They can have cake. They just can't have a custom made cake. The shop also doesn't do Halloween cakes.
I don't see that an artist should be forced to create anything that is asked of him. That's ridiculous.
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 7:26 am
Selling a cake is apparently the same as approving of every aspect of a customer. I think he overestimates his role.
Posts: 11697
Threads: 117
Joined: November 5, 2016
Reputation:
43
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 8:32 am
(This post was last modified: August 18, 2018 at 8:33 am by Amarok.)
Quote:They can have cake. They just can't have a custom made cake. The shop also doesn't do Halloween cakes.
If they will make a custom wedding cake for a straight couple and a straight wedding they must do it for a gay one. Sorry comparing it to Halloween is a non argument .
Quote:I don't see that an artist should be forced to create anything that is asked of him. That's ridiculous.
If the artist running a business and the thing being asked does not qualify as hate speech or something illegal .Then yes they must AS A BUSINESS.This artist bullshit does not fly .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
Posts: 3709
Threads: 18
Joined: September 29, 2015
Reputation:
10
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 9:23 am
(August 18, 2018 at 7:26 am)robvalue Wrote: Selling a cake is apparently the same as approving of every aspect of a customer. I think he overestimates his role.
One again, I believe that he was not refusing to sell to the person, but refusing a specific message, that he is being asked to custom create with his artwork. They very explicitly stated this about the other case and this fact is ignored by those who want to create a false narrative.
From what I have heard from the owner, he would happily create a birthday cake for the person without this (unwritten) message. I think that if people cannot address the issue without being dishonest, that is very telling of their case.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
Posts: 67189
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 9:28 am
He lost the other case. He will lose this one as well.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 1897
Threads: 33
Joined: August 25, 2015
Reputation:
27
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 9:45 am
Why are so many Christians bigots? I mean not all of them are, but a lot of them are. For a religion that's supposed to be about love, it's not about love at fucking all. I think it's time they start being honest in their advertising. They're a religion of hate.
"Tradition" is just a word people use to make themselves feel better about being an asshole.
Posts: 3709
Threads: 18
Joined: September 29, 2015
Reputation:
10
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 9:57 am
(This post was last modified: August 18, 2018 at 10:12 am by RoadRunner79.)
(August 18, 2018 at 9:45 am)Divinity Wrote: Why are so many Christians bigots? I mean not all of them are, but a lot of them are. For a religion that's supposed to be about love, it's not about love at fucking all. I think it's time they start being honest in their advertising. They're a religion of hate.
I don’t hate anyone here, but I don’t suspect that you are interested in The truth, but more about propogating your false narrative.
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
Posts: 19789
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 9:59 am
(This post was last modified: August 18, 2018 at 10:02 am by Anomalocaris.)
(August 18, 2018 at 9:45 am)Divinity Wrote: Why are so many Christians bigots? I mean not all of them are, but a lot of them are. For a religion that's supposed to be about love, it's not about love at fucking all. I think it's time they start being honest in their advertising. They're a religion of hate.
Because jesus is the tool for persons with evil on their minds, but not absolutely without any conscience, to do evil with a glad heart?
Posts: 5436
Threads: 138
Joined: September 6, 2012
Reputation:
58
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 10:26 am
(August 18, 2018 at 7:26 am)alpha male Wrote: (August 17, 2018 at 3:55 pm)CapnAwesome Wrote: I don't think the motive of the cake should matter at all. It's probably true that the customer who goes to that specific bakeshop is trying to stir shit up, but so is the bake shop.
Motive for having a cake should be irrelevant. I was split on this issue before, because I don't necessarily think you should be able to force goods and services from unwilling people, but what, do you need to fill out a correct form to get a cake? The motive of you ordering a cake shouldn't matter. I'm almost certain these people would deny Atheist weddings a cake. What else could be more against their religious beliefs? I grew up in a small town with a single baker, local monopolies like that exist everywhere and that means that whole groups of people will be denied access to certain goods or services. Do we need a seperate baker for each religion in each town? Seems ridiculous.
They can have cake. They just can't have a custom made cake. The shop also doesn't do Halloween cakes.
I don't see that an artist should be forced to create anything that is asked of him. That's ridiculous.
Well we don't really know all the circumstances, but I would wager a guess that they would bake an identical cake to the one described if it were for a Christian baptism.
If that's true that means their objection is to the person, which really isn't any of the baker's business. I'd be curious though if they ask what the cake is for, or if that information was volunteered.
Either way, I was undecided on this before, because like you I don't think artists or really anyone should be forced to produce anything they don't want to. But that doesn't really seem to be what's going on.
The cake order described doesn't sound that special. It doesn't sound like a gay cake or a trans cake. Its not being asked to have two brides on it. It just sounds like a run of the mill cake that could be used to celebrate anything.
If they would make that same cake for a different person or a different celebration. It's just plain and simple bigotry. It's also strikes me that it's not really any of the baker's business what the cakes are used for.
![[Image: dcep7c.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=i46.tinypic.com%2Fdcep7c.jpg)
Posts: 3709
Threads: 18
Joined: September 29, 2015
Reputation:
10
RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 18, 2018 at 10:35 am
From the report that I heard, the two conversation concerning this cake where short, and the person did volunteer the information about the meaning behind the cake. First to the wife of the owner, and then to a sales person. As others have said, this may have been a setup, provoked by the other case.
Would people feel the same, if the message being asked to be made into the cake was one of white supremacy? Would you then refuse to make the cake?
It is said that an argument is what convinces reasonable men and a proof is what it takes to convince even an unreasonable man. - Alexander Vilenkin
If I am shown my error, I will be the first to throw my books into the fire. - Martin Luther
|
