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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 2:39 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2018 at 2:39 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Or maybe he (and all similarly minded christians, frankly..) should just decide for himself whether to serve christ or mammon..and stop looking to the courts to adjudicate that decision for him?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 2:41 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2018 at 2:42 pm by robvalue.)
CL seems to at least recognize that what this guy did is illegal. I'm not sure about our other Christians. Whether or not it should be illegal is another matter entirely.
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:26 pm
(August 20, 2018 at 2:34 pm)Tiberius Wrote: (August 20, 2018 at 1:00 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Yes. And vice versa if the Baker is Muslim or whatever and refuses to make a cake for a Christmas celebration.
Are there any limits? If so, what are they?
Should a white racist baker be able to refuse a cake to black people, celebrating their daughter’s graduation, because he doesn’t believe in the “education of lesser races”?
The fundamental problem here seems to be equating speech with symbolism. Baking a wedding cake for a same-sex wedding doesn’t mean the baker supports the concept. A wedding cake is a wedding cake.
If a hetero couple request a cake from the baker, and then after receiving it give it to their gay friends, who were actually getting married, does that mean the baker now supports gay marriage? Is what the couple did wrong?
Hmm, I don't know... I'm not sure if that would fly as being something that is against the event itself rather than against the person, which should be the only "limit" in my opinion. There is no fundamental difference between a black person graduating and a white person graduating. Since it is only an issue of skin color, it sounds like a case where the Baker is against the person themselves, and not the event.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:29 pm
Theres no fundamental difference between a hetero wedding and a gay wedding, or a trans birthday and a cis birthday..either... 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:31 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2018 at 3:32 pm by Tiberius.)
(August 20, 2018 at 3:26 pm)U Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 20, 2018 at 2:34 pm)Tiberius Wrote: Are there any limits? If so, what are they?
Should a white racist baker be able to refuse a cake to black people, celebrating their daughter’s graduation, because he doesn’t believe in the “education of lesser races”?
The fundamental problem here seems to be equating speech with symbolism. Baking a wedding cake for a same-sex wedding doesn’t mean the baker supports the concept. A wedding cake is a wedding cake.
If a hetero couple request a cake from the baker, and then after receiving it give it to their gay friends, who were actually getting married, does that mean the baker now supports gay marriage? Is what the couple did wrong?
Hmm, I don't know... I'm not sure if that would fly as being something that is against the event itself rather than against the person, which should be the only "limit" in my opinion. There is no fundamental difference between a black person graduating and a white person graduating. Since it is only an issue of skin color, it sounds like a case where the Baker is against the person themselves, and not the event.
But...there’s no fundamental difference between a same-sex wedding and a hetero wedding either. It’s only an issue of the sex of the partners.
What if the baker’s religion told him that graduation ceremonies for blacks were against God? Does that change the issue for you?
I’m trying to understand what difference there is. At some point in your mind it becomes not ok. What is the differentiator?
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:34 pm
Part of me though, wants that to be allowed so the baker's racism can be exposed and his busyness boycotted and go down in flames.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:36 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2018 at 3:38 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Uh huh.......cuz you have to wait for a bigoted baker to break the law to know whether or not they are, in fact, a bigoted baker. On it's face..though, what? You're willing to allow discrimination just so people can point and say Uncle Jeff is a fucking asshole?
Everybody knows, you don't need to let him fuck with people to prove it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:41 pm
(August 20, 2018 at 3:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Part of me though, wants that to be allowed so the baker's racism can be exposed and his busyness boycotted and go down in flames.
and some of the others here might be hoping a false religion with a 1500 year self documented history of child sexual abuse goes down in flames too
all kinds of problems on this world and I'm not holding my breath waiting for much to happen . . .
The granting of a pardon is an imputation of guilt, and the acceptance a confession of it.
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:43 pm
(August 20, 2018 at 3:31 pm)Tiberius Wrote: (August 20, 2018 at 3:26 pm)U Catholic_Lady Wrote: Hmm, I don't know... I'm not sure if that would fly as being something that is against the event itself rather than against the person, which should be the only "limit" in my opinion. There is no fundamental difference between a black person graduating and a white person graduating. Since it is only an issue of skin color, it sounds like a case where the Baker is against the person themselves, and not the event.
But...there’s no fundamental difference between a same-sex wedding and a hetero wedding either. It’s only an issue of the sex of the partners.
What if the baker’s religion told him that graduation ceremonies for blacks were against God? Does that change the issue for you?
I’m trying to understand what difference there is. At some point in your mind it becomes not ok. What is the differentiator?
I need to get going, but do definitely want to come back and talk about this bc I am on the fence about it and can see pros and cons and arguments to both sides, depending on which extreme is taken.
Maybe a real quick response would be that marriage itself is considered a religious sacramental ceremony to a lot of people, and so they have certain beliefs surrounding it. Particularly that it is a union between one man and one woman, and that's it. Graduation doesn't have ties to any sort of deep seeded sacramental or religious beliefs, neither does it make sense that it would. So I would call BS on the person who tried to pull that card.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 20, 2018 at 3:45 pm
(This post was last modified: August 20, 2018 at 3:50 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The religious beliefs of another person regarding the religious sanctimony of marriage have precisely zero weight in us law. All recognized marriages in the united states are recognized by the state. A priest saying magic words doesn't have dick to do with anything beyond the individual who asked their shaman to shake a rattle.
Similarly, it doesn't matter if a person has deeply held but discriminatory religious beliefs. Their religion is not a legitmate grounds for discrimination against the other in any setting under the authority of the public accom clause. That shit belongs in a church, and nowhere else. Our courts have been consistently unambiguous about this. That's what has the religionists panties in such a twist in the first place.
The pollyanna method of bigot apologism is wholly unimpressive.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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