Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2

[Neo-Scholastic]

This refusal seemed purely based on what it meant to the customer, there is nothing about a pink and blue cake that could possibly offend.

See my post above...both intent and context matter with respect the interpretation of symbols.

[possibletarian]

This refusal seemed purely based on what it meant to the customer, there is nothing about a pink and blue cake that could possibly offend.

See my post above...both intent and context matter with respect the interpretation of symbols.

Exactly, but you seem to be making my point, not yours.
He was taking it out of the context of a celebration of liberation and life, and making his own up. The baker was not being asked to celebrate but simply provide a service that he provides day in day out.

Which brings us back to asking if religious sensibilities should be more important than people having the right to the same services as others regardless of gender identity race or creed.

[Joods]

As I stated earlier, the owner will not directly ask questions regarding protected status, because he gets around all of it by inquiring about the event itself. Once he has that information, he then uses his religious beliefs to discriminate. It's in his complaint. All one has to do it read it and they can see it for themselves.

[Tiberius]

I am curious to know what everyone's opinions are about what the law should be, regarding the whole cake baking thing....

Should it always be illegal for a bakery owner to refuse services for an event/cause he disagrees with? Should it always be legal? Should it depend on which event/cause is being refused? And if so, how to identify which causes can be legally refused and which cannot?

It depends on the context.

If you say you will make a wedding cake, but won’t make a wedding cake for same-sex weddings, that should be illegal. There is no fundamental difference between the two cakes. You are discriminating.

Same if you refuse to make a cake for an interracial wedding.

[Catholic_Lady]

I am curious to know what everyone's opinions are about what the law should be, regarding the whole cake baking thing....

Should it always be illegal for a bakery owner to refuse services for an event/cause he disagrees with? Should it always be legal? Should it depend on which event/cause is being refused? And if so, how to identify which causes can be legally refused and which cannot?

The law is already clear on the issue of gender identity, this is the whole point of what is going on now.

I'm sure both you and I could think up some scenarios that have not been tested yet, but that would not mean that we should withhold judgement on other issues that have already been legally clarified.

If it turns out the message he was asked to convey was full of hate and vitriol, then I'm sure he would have support for his refusal. If it is simply one of love from one person to another and his problem is with the gender of the people involved then it is likely he has broken the (already existing) law.

For instance if you were to walk in and ask for a cake with 'happy birthday to my lovely husband' I'm sure he would happily bake it. If the next day a man walks in and says can you bake a cake for me with the message for my husband ' happy birthday to my lovely husband' and get refused, then how is that any other than discrimination ?

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So far as I can tell in the case mentioned in the O.P. the baker had an issue with what the cake symbolised to the customer.

He was asked to bake a cake with pink and blue, the customer said that this was to celebrated the anniversary of becoming transgender.

So far as I can tell he was not asked to inscribe any message on the cake, this makes the refusal even more senseless, I'm sure if for instance they represent a footballs team colours and that was the reason given he would have baked it.

This refusal seemed purely based on what it meant to the customer, there is nothing about a pink and blue cake that could possibly offend.

What are your opinions on refusing to make a generic cake, but knowing that it is for a political or social cause you strongly oppose? For example, if I declined to make a cake for a pro choice rally.

Can an atheist bakery owner refuse to make a cake for a child's baptism celebration if he thought child indoctrination was immoral?

As for writing on the cake, what do you think of writings that are not offensive to some, but they are to others... such as in my case, again, making a cake that says "pro choice" on it.

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I am curious to know what everyone's opinions are about what the law should be, regarding the whole cake baking thing....

Should it always be illegal for a bakery owner to refuse services for an event/cause he disagrees with? Should it always be legal? Should it depend on which event/cause is being refused? And if so, how to identify which causes can be legally refused and which cannot?

It depends on the context.

If you say you will make a wedding cake, but won’t make a wedding cake for same-sex weddings, that should be illegal. There is no fundamental difference between the two cakes. You are discriminating.

Same if you refuse to make a cake for an interracial wedding.

Do you think it should be legal for a Baker to refuse to make a cake for a gay pride party?

[Joods]

Give them a generic cake and let them put their own lettering on it if it offends you that much. Bottom line: if you are in a business to make something for all, such as wedding cakes or custom cakes, then you can't discriminate. If it is clearly hate speech or something that would actually oppress a specific protected class of people, you can't do it.

You cannot use your religious beliefs to discriminate. How else can we make this clear for you?

[The Grand Nudger]

The trouble, is that a certain type of christer really wishes they could, and thinks they should be able to.  The ADF is seeking to make that a reality.

[Tiberius]

@Catholic_Lady

I don’t think the baker should be forced to write anything on the cake they don’t want to. However if the people ask for a gay pride cake, with rainbow colors, etc then the Baker should make it,

The line/test for me is: would the baker refuse to bake the same cake if the use was not obvious.

In other words, if a straight man requests a rainbow colored cake with sprinkles, and the baker is fine with that request, it should not be denied just because a gay man requests the exact same cake for a gay pride party.

The trans cake is a great example btw. If all the person asked for was a blue cake with a pink center, it shouldn’t make a damn of difference whether it’s for a cisgender or transgender.

[Mister Agenda]

CL, the intent of public accommodation laws is to prevent people from being hassled or denied service because of who they are. Those laws protect blacks from being denied a table in a restaurant, Jews a room in a hotel, and in states where public accommodation laws are applie3d to sexual orientation, from bakers refusing to bake you a cake.

In the examples you provide in each case, it is the job of the baker to bake the blasted cake. The baker doesn't have to put a message on the cake that they disagree with, like 'gay sex is great' or 'immigrants are people too'. Whether you want the cake for a pro-choice or pro-life rally is not the baker's concern. Whether it's for a baptism or bar mitzvah is not the baker's concern. The baker's job is to bake, and we already have too many people using their 'religious convictions' to get out of doing things that their job reasonably entails.

Writing on the cake is a separate matter, and the law is settled in the states where it applies. You don't have to write 'everybody should get gay married' but you might have to write 'have a wonderful marriage Roger and Steve', because it's a message you would write for any other couple and the only thing you're changing is the names. If it falls under your state's public accommodation laws, you'd have to bake a cake for a pro or anti-gay party, but wouldn't have to write a pro or anti-gay message on it.

This baker is only being required to bake the same sorts of cakes for gay or trans people that he would bake for anyone else. If he has already established that his shop doesn't make pink and blue cakes for anyone, he doesn't have to for gay or trans people. The law only requires him to treat them the same as he would other human beings.

[Joods]

@Catholic_Lady

I don’t think the baker should be forced to write anything on the cake they don’t want to. However if the people ask for a gay pride cake, with rainbow colors, etc then the Baker should make it,

The line/test for me is: would the baker refuse to bake the same cake if the use was not obvious.

In other words, if a straight man requests a rainbow colored cake with sprinkles, and the baker is fine with that request, it should not be denied just because a gay man requests the exact same cake for a gay pride party.

The trans cake is a great example btw. If all the person asked for was a blue cake with a pink center, it shouldn’t make a damn of difference whether it’s for a cisgender or transgender.

Exactly. But the baker figured out how to try and get around the "intent" issue by personally checking each order and then pushing "innocently" for info regarding the stated purpose of the cake. Then he uses his religious beliefs to deny the request based on what the cake will be used for.