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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:34 pm
I'm not advocating that the Baker should ask what the cake is for. I should have made clear that my examples were for if the people requesting the cake voluntarily mentioned what it was for... would the baker then be allowed to refuse to make it if it was for a cause/event he strongly opposed? It doesn't have to be for religious reasons, either. It could be personal moral reasons that have nothing to do with their religion. Like BennyBoy said, he would have refused to make a cake if he knew it was for a Jewish circumcision celebration.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:39 pm
(August 21, 2018 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not advocating that the Baker should ask what the cake is for. I should have made clear that my examples were for if the people requesting the cake voluntarily mentioned what it was for... would the baker then be allowed to refuse to make it if it was for a cause/event he strongly opposed? It doesn't have to be for religious reasons, either. It could be personal moral reasons that have nothing to do with their religion. Like BennyBoy said, he would have refused to make a cake if he knew it was for a Jewish circumcision celebration.
You've already been given a few answers. The baker should just bake the cake and be done with it. Anyone could easily lie and say it's for "A" then once they pay for it and take it with them, use it for whatever purpose they want to.
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:40 pm
(August 21, 2018 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not advocating that the Baker should ask what the cake is for. I should have made clear that my examples were for if the people requesting the cake voluntarily mentioned what it was for... would the baker then be allowed to refuse to make it if it was for a cause/event he strongly opposed? It doesn't have to be for religious reasons, either. It could be personal moral reasons that have nothing to do with their religion. Like BennyBoy said, he would have refused to make a cake if he knew it was for a Jewish circumcision celebration.
Tbf I think there is a threshold for "personal moral reasons". If I refused to bake a Neo Nazi's birthday cake with designs of swastikas and other Nazi imagery that would be reasonable.
Refusing to bake a gay couple's wedding cake makes you a bigoted asshole.
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:41 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2018 at 6:44 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The things covered under civil rights legislation are specific. You can deny people service for a whole range of reasons or no reason whatsoebver, just not those reasons listed. It doesn't matter what your justification for denying someone service on account of those reasons is.
You don't even have to offer a nazi a reason that you denied his service. You can just tell him to gtfo, lol. Hell, this baker could've gotten away with it if he'd have just shut his mouth.
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:42 pm
(This post was last modified: August 21, 2018 at 6:46 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(August 21, 2018 at 6:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: The line/test for me is: would the baker refuse to bake the same cake if the use was not obvious.
So to clarify, if the cake was completely generic, but the customer just so happened to mention (without being asked) that it was for a particular cause, the Baker still has to make it since the cake itself is generic? Even if he was told what it was for and strongly opposes the cause?
(August 21, 2018 at 6:40 pm)Lucanus Wrote: (August 21, 2018 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not advocating that the Baker should ask what the cake is for. I should have made clear that my examples were for if the people requesting the cake voluntarily mentioned what it was for... would the baker then be allowed to refuse to make it if it was for a cause/event he strongly opposed? It doesn't have to be for religious reasons, either. It could be personal moral reasons that have nothing to do with their religion. Like BennyBoy said, he would have refused to make a cake if he knew it was for a Jewish circumcision celebration.
Tbf I think there is a threshold for "personal moral reasons". If I refused to bake a Neo Nazi's birthday cake with designs of swastikas and other Nazi imagery that would be reasonable.
So that is my question. How would the law go about dictating what would and would not be allowed to be refused? The swastika drawings, I get. What if the cake was generic (no swastikas on it), but the customer voluntarily told you it was for a white supremacist gathering. Should you be legally allowed to refuse?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:49 pm
The white supremacist might be a bad example, as they aren’t a protected class.
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:50 pm
Political affiliations aren't a protected class either.
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:54 pm
So cakes can be refused so long as the customer isn't a protected class?
Sorry, don't mean to be annoying lol. I'm genuinely trying to understand where some of you stand, exactly. Joods and Agenda made it clear where they stand, but am just unclear on some of the other answers.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 6:59 pm
(August 21, 2018 at 6:39 pm)Joods Wrote: (August 21, 2018 at 6:34 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm not advocating that the Baker should ask what the cake is for. I should have made clear that my examples were for if the people requesting the cake voluntarily mentioned what it was for... would the baker then be allowed to refuse to make it if it was for a cause/event he strongly opposed? It doesn't have to be for religious reasons, either. It could be personal moral reasons that have nothing to do with their religion. Like BennyBoy said, he would have refused to make a cake if he knew it was for a Jewish circumcision celebration.
You've already been given a few answers. The baker should just bake the cake and be done with it. Anyone could easily lie and say it's for "A" then once they pay for it and take it with them, use it for whatever purpose they want to.
Maybe ask for an extra groom-doll .. just in case they lose the original.
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RE: Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2
August 21, 2018 at 7:02 pm
(August 21, 2018 at 6:42 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 21, 2018 at 6:00 pm)Tiberius Wrote: The line/test for me is: would the baker refuse to bake the same cake if the use was not obvious.
So to clarify, if the cake was completely generic, but the customer just so happened to mention (without being asked) that it was for a particular cause, the Baker still has to make it since the cake itself is generic? Even if he was told what it was for and strongly opposes the cause?
(August 21, 2018 at 6:40 pm)Lucanus Wrote: Tbf I think there is a threshold for "personal moral reasons". If I refused to bake a Neo Nazi's birthday cake with designs of swastikas and other Nazi imagery that would be reasonable.
So that is my question. How would the law go about dictating what would and would not be allowed to be refused? The swastika drawings, I get. What if the cake was generic (no swastikas on it), but the customer voluntarily told you it was for a white supremacist gathering. Should you be legally allowed to refuse?
Yes. White supremacists = hate group.
We can argue about what lies in the middle, like the circumcision case. But refusing service because of someone's sexual orientation is the same as doing so because of the colour of someone's skin. Despicable, bigoted and a major dick move.
"Every luxury has a deep price. Every indulgence, a cosmic cost. Each fiber of pleasure you experience causes equivalent pain somewhere else. This is the first law of emodynamics [sic]. Joy can be neither created nor destroyed. The balance of happiness is constant.
Fact: Every time you eat a bite of cake, someone gets horsewhipped.
Facter: Every time two people kiss, an orphanage collapses.
Factest: Every time a baby is born, an innocent animal is severely mocked for its physical appearance. Don't be a pleasure hog. Your every smile is a dagger. Happiness is murder.
Vote "yes" on Proposition 1321. Think of some kids. Some kids."
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