Masterpiece Cakeshop v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission, Round 2

[possibletarian]

What are your opinions on refusing to make a generic cake, but knowing that it is for a political or social cause you strongly oppose? For example, if I declined to make a cake for a pro choice rally.

Can an atheist bakery owner refuse to make a cake for a child's baptism celebration if he thought child indoctrination was immoral?

As for writing on the cake, what do you think of writings that are not offensive to some, but they are to others... such as in my case, again, making a cake that says "pro choice" on it.

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Sorry CL missed this one.

I would like to think I would bake a cake and conduct my business according to the law at the time, none of the above you mention are a protected class.

I would have no problem baking a cake for a child baptism at all, and i would happily put any accompanying message they wanted on. I wouldn't connect (unless i had good reason to) the baptism itself with any indoctrination.

As for a political party, yes I would have no problem I believe in democracy, They are buying a cake not a vote.

As for the last one CL, I certainly wouldn't ever ask you to write 'pro choice' on any cake I simply would not be such an insensitive ass to you.
Should you have the right to refuse though is the question, personally i think you should be able to not do that and I don't believe there would be anything wrong in fighting for your rights to do that.

What we are talking about here though is what the law states, the baker in question is asking that the law that applies to everyone else not be applied to him on religious grounds. We could go on all day invoking scenarios that would be difficult for all, but gender equality is a well thought out law, that was fought for over many generations of suffering, abuse and discrimination.

[Catholic_Lady]

It'd be super shitty, but legally I think he should have the right to do that, yeah.

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And just so everyone knows I'm being completely objective here, I'd say the same thing if the scenario was a Catholic baptism or something.

Interesting. Can you justify your position? The cake is already baked. It’s already symbolic, the baker was just unaware of its symbolism. Are you saying that freedom of expression is retroactive?

I’m failing to see the difference between this scenario and one where the baker is blissfully unaware the entire time (say, if the customer picks up the cake alone).

My position is the same - that a business owner shouldn't be forced by the government to contribute to an event or cause he has strong opposition to. If he doesn't know, then he doesn't know. But if he finds out and decides he doesn't want to service such event, it should be in his right to refuse, imho.

However, Agenda does make a good point regarding your example, which is that the couple could possibly sue at that point... for ruining their event last minute. In which case it would have been the baker's fault for not asking about the wedding. If he's willing to pull some shit like that last minute, it is his duty to ask ahead of time, so he doesn't screw people over and ruin their day.

My position comes from the bit of libertarian in me. In principle, I generally would rather the government stay out of personal freedoms as much as it is reasonably possible to do so. The right to life should always be protected, which is why I'm pro life and am for better health care coverage for people who can't afford it, and help for the poor, etc. But as far as making cakes goes, and refusing services for specific events (not people), I don't see this as any sort of life/death situation where it is crucial for the government to step in.

[The Grand Nudger]

You have no personal freedoms if another can strip them from you on a whim, religious or otherwise.

That's kind of the point of civil rights laws.

[Neo-Scholastic]

I fail to understand how people cannot see the obvious difference between discriminating against a person because of who they are and refusing to promote a message with which they disagree. I guess the pleasure of self-righteousness anger overrides all reason for them.

[The Grand Nudger]

The only comforting thing I find in this entire song and dance..is that even the christians must realize how fucked up this is.  Otherwise, they wouln't need to twist their balls into knots asserting that it's Totally Not That™.

Must be one of those disconnects between the head and the heart.

[Javaman]

I think you are making this way more complicated than it needs to be, CL

Refusing to bake a cake for Nazis or white supremicists means taking a stand against bigotry and prejudice.

Refusing to bake a cake for LGBTQ2S customers means taking a stand in favour of bigotry and prejudice.

Stop being distracted by the details. Are you for or against behaviour that entrenches discriminatory behaviour against minority groups as defined by law?

All else is irrelevant distraction.

That post was literally NOT addressing nazis or gays lol. It was literally about the stuff in between.  

Anyway, there is no distraction, as I personally wouldn't have a problem making a gay wedding cake. It isn't about that. What I'm trying to show here, is that when we start legally forcing people to make cakes to celebrate events/causes they strongly oppose, we start running into problems.

It is easy to say you agree that people should be forced to provide this service, when it is for something you agree with or don't have a problem with... without thinking about what this lack of freedom means in the bigger picture, when it involves other scenarios. That's what I'm trying to show here.

Why not answer the question concerning my examples? Seems you are the one trying to distract from the point I'm trying to make by literally not addressing it at all.

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I did address your question. You may need to reread my post.

Here's a hint: it's not about my personal opinion on an issue.

[Joods]

Enough of the "what would you say to this or that" situations. All these individual scenarios are on a case by case basis and all I see here, is once the answer is given, well, let's nitpick a little more with this situation or that situation simply because one doesn't like the answer that's been given. How many times does one need an answer before realizing that people need to stop being douchenozzles and just get along for humanity's sake?

Bake the fucking cakes or put yourself out of business because you let pride and arrogance cut your nose to spite your face. Jesus fucking Christ. It's a goddamned cake. So you can't handle putting two grooms on top of a wedding cake. Who the fuck cares? Make the cake, deliver it to the venue and let those paying for it put their own cake topper on it and leave the happiness to people who deserve it. How the hell is that personally harming one hair on your stupid head?

It's fucking common sense. If it's illegal to do it, if it oppresses a protected class, if you are clearly using your bullshit religious beliefs to skirt around the law, you are a bigot and you can take your custom cakes and shove em up your ass.

[The Grand Nudger]

Break laws..pay fines.  Besides, you can't really put a price on being right with jesus, can you? 

[Cod]

I fail to understand how people cannot see the obvious  difference between discriminating against a person because of who they are and refusing to promote a message with which they disagree. I guess the pleasure of self-righteousness anger overrides all reason for them.

What was so terrible about the message in this particular case? What was the message? Tell me what the message was.

[LastPoet]

This is mostly a cultural thing. Here in this living half heaven, half hell we call Portugal and yes we are latinos. Usually ordering cake they want to know how heavy it will be, the kind of pasta, any special flavours, fillings, they can print photos of whatever they are celebrating, for some extra buck.

Also, in here, you can only deny serving a customer, if visibly drunk, drugged or under somekind of mental distress.

I fail to see how personal opinions get in the way of doing your job.