On Hell and Forgiveness

[Amarok]

 What sins would someone who has already died and gone to hell not be willing to give up in the name of ending that suffering?

 

The blissfiulness of Heaven doesnt come from being in a tropical paradise with lots of good people, pleasures, and fun things to do, etc. It comes from being completely fulfilled due to accepting, and thus experiencing, love and goodness to its absolute fullest. So you are blissful because you are in a state where you have rejected all evil. There is no selfishness, no pride, no envy, no greed within you. You have fully rejected those things, and fully embraced love and goodness. In doing so, you are liberated and left feeling completely fulfilled. Think of it as the blissful euphoric feeling of being in love. 

That sounds awful especially if it's for eternity of course this also assumes that any of these feelings are good or right rather then the contrary.

Hell, on the other hand, is the opposite. The person isn't being burned and tortured in a dark cave with little demons running around with pitch forks. Rather, your misery comes from your own decision to reject goodness and love. Maybe out of pride. Maybe out of lack of remorse for the wrongs you have done. Maybe out of bitterness of some sort. Maybe you have a sense of entitlement - thinking that you deserve to experience eternal happiness even while being selfish... rather than being humble and remorseful. Basically, you are caught in your own negative sentiments and your own darkness. It is miserable, because when you are not in this life anymore, the only thing you take with you to the next is your soul. So you don't have distractions. If your soul is in a dark state, that is the only thing you will have and the only thing you will feel, and it is awful. That is what I believe Hell is like. 

That sounds awful especially if it's for eternity and this makes the absurd statement that it's "pride " that makes people feel remorse for supposed wrongs (wrongs according to Christianity ) rather then it not actually being wrong . Also it assumes that while they don't feel good they are in fact good .

---

No, it wasn't. But that's ok. The question wasn't for you anyway.

I predict Jorms answer will be a much better worded agreement .Though i could be wrong .

[Angrboda]

If I were to die tomorrow and realize I was wrong, and I begged god for forgiveness but he refused, how could my exile be considered self-imposed?

Dante’s Inferno poetically presents the answer. Those in Hell love sinning more than they love God and thus cannot turn toward the Good and Truth that could otherwise be theirs. You would be begging to enter Heaven but asking to take your sin in with you. It is like the proverbial monkey trap. The monkey won’t drop the fruit bait and as such, he cannot pull his fist out of the narrow hole in the coconut.

False analogy is false. The one not letting go in this instance is God.

[polymath257]

So, people in hell are actively choosing eternal agony and suffering over god?  That doesn’t make any sense.  Are they sinning in hell whilst suffering?  What sins would someone who has already died and gone to hell not be willing to give up in the name of ending that suffering?

LFC, like I said, no one knows exactly how it is like. So I hope people can keep in mind that what I am about to say is my opinion only. I could very well be completely wrong, and I'm not presenting this as any sort of Church doctrine. These are my thoughts only:

I believe Heaven and Hell are more comparable to states of being, not physical places.

The blissfiulness of Heaven doesnt come from being in a tropical paradise with lots of good people, pleasures, and fun things to do, etc. It comes from being completely fulfilled due to accepting, and thus experiencing, love and goodness to its absolute fullest.  So you are blissful because you are in a state where you have rejected all evil. There is no selfishness, no pride, no envy, no greed within you. You have fully rejected those things, and fully embraced love and goodness. In doing so, you are liberated and left feeling completely fulfilled. Think of it as the blissful euphoric feeling of being in love.  

Hell, on the other hand, is the opposite. The person isn't being burned and tortured in a dark cave with little demons running around with pitch forks. Rather, your misery comes from your own decision to reject goodness and love. Maybe out of pride. Maybe out of lack of remorse for the wrongs you have done. Maybe out of bitterness of some sort. Maybe you have a sense of entitlement - thinking that you deserve to experience eternal happiness even while being selfish... rather than being humble and remorseful. Basically, you are caught in your own negative sentiments and your own darkness. It is miserable, because when you are not in this life anymore, the only thing you take with you to the next is your soul. So you don't have distractions. If your soul is in a dark state, that is the only thing you will have and the only thing you will feel, and it is awful. That is what I believe Hell is like.

A couple years ago, I actually wrote a thread about this where I went pretty I depth, and provided a link that also explains my opinions on it. You can read it here if you are curious: https://atheistforums.org/thread-35781.html

Truthfully, both scenarios sound perfectly dreadful. But then, I have trouble imagining a non-dreadful scenario that involves eternal life. Let's face it. After 10^10000 years, pretty much *anything* will have happened so many times it would be frightfully boring.

But, of the two scenarios you mention, I think I would have an easier time in the description of Hell. It seems that it would allow for much more time to peacefully contemplate whatever comes to mind. And that should be enough for the first 10^100 years.

[Crossless2.0]

Dante’s Inferno poetically presents the answer. Those in Hell love sinning more than they love God and thus cannot turn toward the Good and Truth that could otherwise be theirs. You would be begging to enter Heaven but asking to take your sin in with you. It is like the proverbial monkey trap. The monkey won’t drop the fruit bait and as such, he cannot pull his fist out of the narrow hole in the coconut.

False analogy is false.  The one not letting go in this instance is God.

Something, something . . . God's essential nature (that I just posited) . . . something, something . . . .

Fictional characters never get to be other than what their creators have decided they will be.

[LadyForCamus]

So, people in hell are actively choosing eternal agony and suffering over god?  That doesn’t make any sense.  Are they sinning in hell whilst suffering?  What sins would someone who has already died and gone to hell not be willing to give up in the name of ending that suffering?

LFC, like I said, no one knows exactly how it is like. So I hope people can keep in mind that what I am about to say is my opinion only. I could very well be completely wrong, and I'm not presenting this as any sort of Church doctrine. These are my thoughts only:

I believe Heaven and Hell are more comparable to states of being, not physical places.

The blissfiulness of Heaven doesnt come from being in a tropical paradise with lots of good people, pleasures, and fun things to do, etc. It comes from being completely fulfilled due to accepting, and thus experiencing, love and goodness to its absolute fullest.  So you are blissful because you are in a state where you have rejected all evil. There is no selfishness, no pride, no envy, no greed within you. You have fully rejected those things, and fully embraced love and goodness. In doing so, you are liberated and left feeling completely fulfilled. Think of it as the blissful euphoric feeling of being in love.  

Hell, on the other hand, is the opposite. The person isn't being burned and tortured in a dark cave with little demons running around with pitch forks. Rather, your misery comes from your own decision to reject goodness and love. Maybe out of pride. Maybe out of lack of remorse for the wrongs you have done. Maybe out of bitterness of some sort. Maybe you have a sense of entitlement - thinking that you deserve to experience eternal happiness even while being selfish... rather than being humble and remorseful. Basically, you are caught in your own negative sentiments and your own darkness. It is miserable, because when you are not in this life anymore, the only thing you take with you to the next is your soul. So you don't have distractions. If your soul is in a dark state, that is the only thing you will have and the only thing you will feel, and it is awful. That is what I believe Hell is like.

Thanks, CL.  I will definitely check out your thread, but just a few quick thoughts here. Are you implying that people in hell have the ability and opportunity to become remorseful at some point, and rejoin god?  Is there biblical support for that?  If not, then I see a clear moral issue, and direct contradiction to god’s supposedly forgiving and all-loving nature.  I can’t think of a justification for keeping someone you supposedly love a prisoner with their pain, or eternally denying them love, because of a finite rejection.  

I appreciate that you admit you don’t have all the answers, but what I don’t understand is how you can feel so trusting and confident in something that you admittedly know so little about?  That’s not meant to be insulting, btw.  I’m genuinely curious.

[Catholic_Lady]

LFC, like I said, no one knows exactly how it is like. So I hope people can keep in mind that what I am about to say is my opinion only. I could very well be completely wrong, and I'm not presenting this as any sort of Church doctrine. These are my thoughts only:

I believe Heaven and Hell are more comparable to states of being, not physical places.

The blissfiulness of Heaven doesnt come from being in a tropical paradise with lots of good people, pleasures, and fun things to do, etc. It comes from being completely fulfilled due to accepting, and thus experiencing, love and goodness to its absolute fullest.  So you are blissful because you are in a state where you have rejected all evil. There is no selfishness, no pride, no envy, no greed within you. You have fully rejected those things, and fully embraced love and goodness. In doing so, you are liberated and left feeling completely fulfilled. Think of it as the blissful euphoric feeling of being in love.  

Hell, on the other hand, is the opposite. The person isn't being burned and tortured in a dark cave with little demons running around with pitch forks. Rather, your misery comes from your own decision to reject goodness and love. Maybe out of pride. Maybe out of lack of remorse for the wrongs you have done. Maybe out of bitterness of some sort. Maybe you have a sense of entitlement - thinking that you deserve to experience eternal happiness even while being selfish... rather than being humble and remorseful. Basically, you are caught in your own negative sentiments and your own darkness. It is miserable, because when you are not in this life anymore, the only thing you take with you to the next is your soul. So you don't have distractions. If your soul is in a dark state, that is the only thing you will have and the only thing you will feel, and it is awful. That is what I believe Hell is like.

Thanks, CL.  I will definitely check out your thread, but just a few quick thoughts here. Are you implying that people in hell have the ability and opportunity to become remorseful at some point, and rejoin god?  Is there biblical support for that?  If not, then I see a clear moral issue, and direct contradiction to god’s supposedly forgiving and all-loving nature.  I can’t think of a justification for keeping someone you supposedly love a prisoner with their pain, or eternally denying them love in return because of finite rejection.

Again, just my opinion here, but as far as people "changing", I think thats where Purgatory comes in. The difference between Hell and Purgatory is that the former consists of people who don't even want to change. They are already a hopeless case. Purgatory is kind of that middle point where you are not quite there yet but working towards it. We do believe Hell is permanent, so maybe that means the people who reach that point are so far gone to where it is truly hopeless?

I appreciate that you admit you don’t have all the answers, but what I don’t understand is how you can feel so trusting and confident in something that you admittedly know so little about?  That’s not meant to be insulting, btw.  I’m genuinely curious.

Well, I am trusting and confident that there is a God and that He is good. I'm not sure what the afterlife will be like or how it'll work, but I trust that whatever it is, it will be just.

[Amarok]

Again, just my opinion here, but as far as people "changing", I think thats where Purgatory comes in. The difference between Hell and Purgatory is that the former consists of people who don't even want to change. They are already a hopeless case. Purgatory is kind of that middle point where you are not quite there yet but working towards it. We do believe Hell is permanent, so maybe that means the people who reach that point are so far gone to where it is truly hopeless? 

This presumes they have any reason to change or any reason to want to change and presumes that the change is good

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

If I were to die tomorrow and realize I was wrong, and I begged god for forgiveness but he refused, how could my exile be considered self-imposed?

Dante’s Inferno poetically presents the answer. Those in Hell love sinning more than they love God and thus cannot turn toward the Good and Truth that could otherwise be theirs. You would be begging to enter Heaven but asking to take your sin in with you. It is like the proverbial monkey trap. The monkey won’t drop the fruit bait and as such, he cannot pull his fist out of the narrow hole in the coconut.

You just equated Divine mercy with fisting a coconut.  Well done!

Boru

[Fireball]

Dante’s Inferno poetically presents the answer. Those in Hell love sinning more than they love God and thus cannot turn toward the Good and Truth that could otherwise be theirs. You would be begging to enter Heaven but asking to take your sin in with you. It is like the proverbial monkey trap. The monkey won’t drop the fruit bait and as such, he cannot pull his fist out of the narrow hole in the coconut.

You just equated Divine mercy with fisting a coconut.  Well done!

Boru

[Neo-Scholastic]

Dante’s Inferno poetically presents the answer. Those in Hell love sinning more than they love God and thus cannot turn toward the Good and Truth that could otherwise be theirs. You would be begging to enter Heaven but asking to take your sin in with you. It is like the proverbial monkey trap. The monkey won’t drop the fruit bait and as such, he cannot pull his fist out of the narrow hole in the coconut.

You just equated Divine mercy with fisting a coconut.  Well done!

Boru

Well played. Touche.