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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 29, 2018 at 7:35 pm
(This post was last modified: August 29, 2018 at 7:37 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I've never had to literally or metaphorically send anyone to hell and/or torture-not torture anyone on account of not having forced them to be with me.
This god guy is starting to sound like an emotional failure with extremely limited abilities and options.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 2:07 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 2:14 am by robvalue.)
Can't we just be allowed to frigging die, if the alternative is spending an eternity with some dipshit God? Or be sent somewhere else where we'd be happy?
I just thought: using God as a tool to make an abusive relationship sound like "love" would be very useful to people who actually want to control their female partner. It fits the patriarchal narrative.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 8:24 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 8:26 am by SteveII.)
(August 29, 2018 at 2:33 pm)polymath257 Wrote: (August 29, 2018 at 2:10 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My thoughts in simpler terms:
Hell exists because God is not a tyrant who is going to force us to choose Him. He gives us the choice to choose God, or to choose "not God."
Hell is not a dark cave with fire and little demons running around torturing you. It is simply a separation from God.
Since God is Himself pure love, by separating our souls from God in the afterlife, you are separating yourself from beauty, joy, and love. That is why Hell sucks. Not because of torture or punishment.
Just because you are separating from 'pure love', why would that mean you are separated from love in all cases? Why would it imply you are separated from all beauty and joy? All it seems to mean is that you are separated from the 'pure' versions of these. But that is the case in life anyway, right?
Not having a body will probably put a dent in enjoying, well...just everything. Think about that for a minute. No input, no output.
In heaven, we are promised a new body that does not decay. It seems our souls are designed to be embodied for optimal performance.
Sorry, not a specific answer to your question, but seemed relevant to point out that such talk about having anything in hell is wrong.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 8:32 am
(August 30, 2018 at 2:07 am)robvalue Wrote: Can't we just be allowed to frigging die, if the alternative is spending an eternity with some dipshit God? Or be sent somewhere else where we'd be happy?
I just thought: using God as a tool to make an abusive relationship sound like "love" would be very useful to people who actually want to control their female partner. It fits the patriarchal narrative. I would simply prefer death
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 9:18 am
(August 30, 2018 at 8:24 am)SteveII Wrote: (August 29, 2018 at 2:33 pm)polymath257 Wrote: Just because you are separating from 'pure love', why would that mean you are separated from love in all cases? Why would it imply you are separated from all beauty and joy? All it seems to mean is that you are separated from the 'pure' versions of these. But that is the case in life anyway, right?
Not having a body will probably put a dent in enjoying, well...just everything. Think about that for a minute. No input, no output.
In heaven, we are promised a new body that does not decay. It seems our souls are designed to be embodied for optimal performance.
Sorry, not a specific answer to your question, but seemed relevant to point out that such talk about having anything in hell is wrong.
Again, I don't see the logic. Why would we not be able to experience happiness even if disembodied? Why would it be excluded simply because we are removed from the 'pure' version?
Why would we not be able to experience intellectual stimulation? be able to think deeply about various concepts?
If hell is is simply being separated from God, I fail to see the negative side. If it is torture, that simply makes the creator evil. Either way, 'furthest from Him is best'.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 9:28 am
(August 30, 2018 at 9:18 am)polymath257 Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 8:24 am)SteveII Wrote: Not having a body will probably put a dent in enjoying, well...just everything. Think about that for a minute. No input, no output.
In heaven, we are promised a new body that does not decay. It seems our souls are designed to be embodied for optimal performance.
Sorry, not a specific answer to your question, but seemed relevant to point out that such talk about having anything in hell is wrong.
Again, I don't see the logic. Why would we not be able to experience happiness even if disembodied? Why would it be excluded simply because we are removed from the 'pure' version?
Why would we not be able to experience intellectual stimulation? be able to think deeply about various concepts?
If hell is is simply being separated from God, I fail to see the negative side. If it is torture, that simply makes the creator evil. Either way, 'furthest from Him is best'. And any god who would deny people love of happiness simply for living apart is not a loving or good god . Because love should not be so exclusive . And yes Poly it's not logical it's just Christians trying to reinvent the unpalatable elements of their religion by making it your fault your in hell rather then the obvious fact it their gods fault .
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 9:31 am
(August 30, 2018 at 2:07 am)robvalue Wrote: Can't we just be allowed to frigging die, if the alternative is spending an eternity with some dipshit God? Or be sent somewhere else where we'd be happy?
Since God is love, and therefore joy itself, the absence of Him would mean the absence of joy. So if that is true, then no, it is not possible for there to be any other alternative. The same way that you can't be wet but have an absence of water. It isn't a punishment, just a fact of life.
God is good, which is precisely why He allows us to choose Him, or to choose "not Him." He gives us the freedom and independence to be our own person and doesn't force us to accept something we don't want.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 9:42 am
(August 30, 2018 at 9:31 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 30, 2018 at 2:07 am)robvalue Wrote: Can't we just be allowed to frigging die, if the alternative is spending an eternity with some dipshit God? Or be sent somewhere else where we'd be happy?
Since God is love, and therefore joy itself, the absence of Him would mean the absence of joy. So if that is true, then no, it is not possible for there to be any other alternative. The same way that you can't be wet but have an absence of water. It isn't a punishment, just a fact of life.
God is good, which is precisely why He allows us to choose Him, or to choose "not Him." He gives us the freedom and independence to be our own person and doesn't force us to accept something we don't want.
Now liberally insert 'allegedly' or 'I speculate' or 'I read in a book' into your post, and you'll immediately clear the air of that lingering odor of dishonest assertion that always accompanies Christian talk of the afterlife.
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 9:54 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 9:55 am by Catholic_Lady.)
(August 29, 2018 at 2:33 pm)polymath257 Wrote: (August 29, 2018 at 2:10 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: My thoughts in simpler terms:
Hell exists because God is not a tyrant who is going to force us to choose Him. He gives us the choice to choose God, or to choose "not God."
Hell is not a dark cave with fire and little demons running around torturing you. It is simply a separation from God.
Since God is Himself pure love, by separating our souls from God in the afterlife, you are separating yourself from beauty, joy, and love. That is why Hell sucks. Not because of torture or punishment.
Just because you are separating from 'pure love', why would that mean you are separated from love in all cases? Why would it imply you are separated from all beauty and joy? All it seems to mean is that you are separated from the 'pure' versions of these. But that is the case in life anyway, right?
Because God is literally love and goodness itself. Love does not exist apart from Him, the same way rain does not exist apart from water. Because rain literally is water.
As humans, we were made for love because we were created by Him, who is love. Meaning that is ultimately how we will find fulfillment - through love. Without it, we cannot be joyful, by nature.
In this life, we can find distractions. Like money, sex, activities, etc. A person who is greedy and has pushed everyone away and has 0 love in their lives but still has a lot of material things and a lot of bodily pleasures, isn't a truly happy and fulfilled person. But since they still have those distractions, they may not always feel completely empty.
However, when we die, we don't bring money with us. We don't bring our bodies with us. Meaning all that is left is our souls. There are no material possessions or bodily pleasures. So if you reject God (ie reject love), there is nothing to distract you from your lack of love. And since love is integral to our sense of fulfillement and joy, a person who rejects love in the next life cannot be happy.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: On Hell and Forgiveness
August 30, 2018 at 9:57 am
(This post was last modified: August 30, 2018 at 10:01 am by Silver.)
God is nothing more than a concept. Anyone can delude one's self into believing that something is love. If one is going to adhere to emotion, leave god out of it. Love is not god, god is not love. Love is just love, a delusion fostered by chemistry.
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