It's not religion..believe me. It's something else

[Angrboda]

I'll also point out that theists like Atlas are fond of claiming that the deaths under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Gang Of Four were motivated by religion.  

And whatever else you might say, the Israelli situation, Afghanistan, ISIS, and Sunni and Shi'ite violence are all about religion.

I don't know the type of drugs you injected yourself with, but I never said anything like that ever in this forum; and please quote me if I ever said something like that.

The dictators like Hitler and Stalin weren't moved by religion.

I said theists like you, dumbass. Anytime you want to deny being a theist, knock yourself out. The only reason you're bitching about this is because you have no argument against anything else that I said.

[WinterHold]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barons%27_War

I don't think they learned until now. Britain had a long history of wars, either with France or within itself or as a consequence of the imperial expansions. My point is that when you want a war with 30,000,000 casualties, you never go to religion: but you go to the Kuffar -like the Mongols- or the west -WW1 & WW2-.


I do know that the west has good people in it, and that's what the human race has:good and bad people.
But we are not speaking about the good people now; we are speaking about the criminals that hurt western people before they hurt foreigners; they led Europe and America to a world war once, and now they are doing it again (Trump and his likes).

AGAIN Atlass, I HATE TRUMP TOO, and if you did not notice, Macron, the French PM basically bitch slapped him on the international stage at a memorial honoring the END of the brutality of war. Trump is an authoritarian asshole wannabe, he has more in common with the likes of Putin, Un, the Imams of Iran and your Saudi Ruling family than I do.

I don't like Bibi Nuttyfuckhoo either.  But, I will never lose sight, regardless of our different locations on this planet, that there are STILL plenty of decent humans that can and do see beyond the powers above them.

We as a species would do better collectively to reject tribalism, especially now, when there is no more room for conquest for any side, and especially since we live in an age of mutual destruction and friend and foe alike have nuclear weapons.

The flags and old borders must end and go, and we must forget tribalism and racial affiliations.
I didn't see Macron's bitch slap to Trump.

---

Jesus. F. Christ, this nutbag cant put together a coherent argument and keep it until his next post. He seems to have the attention span of a fruit fly. I am really in doubt that responding to his incoherent ramblings is worth the time.

Can you guide me to the "insult bank" that you borrow your insults from??
It's always the same broken record: ( not making coherent sentences/ ignorant / crazy/ old fashioned/ look at me I am so modern and smart/ camel fucker/ sheep fucker/ ...etc )

?  

I mean update your list of insults, please ! then return to me.
My post was coherent and nothing is wrong with what I said. Maybe the problem is in your reading skills?

---

I'll also point out that theists like Atlas are fond of claiming that the deaths under Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, and the Gang Of Four were motivated by religion.  

And whatever else you might say, the Israelli situation, Afghanistan, ISIS, and Sunni and Shi'ite violence are all about religion.

Ultimately it's a pointless argument.  Yes, other things besides religion start wars.  And yes, nothing as stupid and pointless as a religious war is as common as one.

The former fact doesn't reduce the significance of the latter fact.

To be fair to Atlass, plenty of Christians and Jews pull the same argument too. 

And they'd all be wrong because religion never left those dictatorships. Dictators are not about oppressing religion as being their only goal, but any and all dissent. Dictators will leave the religious alone if that group kisses their ass. All of them had to pander to religious groups to gain and keep their support.

That says more about the dictators being good to anybody that kisses their ass, religions are not an exception.

For example, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt vs Al Azhar in Egypt.
Al Azhar is pro the dictatorship; Muslim Brotherhood is against it.

[Belacqua]

Wars have always arisen, and arise today, from territorial disputes, military rivalries, conflicts of ethnicity, and strivings for commercial and economic advantage, and they have always depended on, and depend on today, pride, prejudice, coercion, envy, cupidity, competitiveness, and a sense of injustice. But for much of the world before the 17th century, these “reasons” for war were explained and justified, at least for the participants, by religion. Then, around the middle of the 17th century, Europeans began to conceive of war as a legitimate means of furthering the interests of individual sovereigns. (Emphasis mine).

~ Axelrod, Alan & Phillips, Charles. Encyclopedia of Wars, quoted in Fact Check: Religious Wars: Only 123 of 1763?

Well if Mr. Axelrod wrote it, it must be true.

I already wrote that religion has served as a motivator and rallying point for wars that were not religious in origin. Powerful people want power, and tell lies to get it. 

I disagree with Mr. Axelrod that the practice stopped in the 17th century. It continues to this day. Peter Hitchens has described how the Christian leadership of Britain lost its moral authority by urging people to fight in WWI. Evil American politicians motivate stupid Americans by scaring us with the threat of Islam. Religion has always been a useful tool. But it has almost never been the cause. 

We can ponder a counterfactual: would wars be so common if evil leaders didn't have religion as a tool? It's impossible to say. Religion is far from being the only irrational factor in the world. Nationalism, patriotism, political ideologies, etc. seem to serve as well. 

Nor does the obvious failure of one of these serve to turn people against it, despite Minimalist's claims. America tends to lose its wars, in the last decades, but Americans still think they have the bestest army ever. Nazis lost rather badly, but they're making a comeback, and they think this time they'll get it right.

[WinterHold]

.........Fuck it!

Atlas first argument

Hell, you know very well that when people fought, it usually is for money or land. Religious wars ended so long ago, and with the "Mongol Invasion" that dropped so many dead, it was obvious that it is not religion that moves nations

My reply: Religion does move nations, even 300 years after the mongols, as evidenced by the 30y war. I also pointed out it was an EUROPEAN war, so replying with a list of biggest global events misses the point.

I also pointed out that a religious motto was embossed on the belt buckles of German soldiers in WWI 700y after the mongols (in reference to your original claim that religion doesnt motivate nations to go to war, particularly not after the mongols. Your reply: a list containing WWI.

The religious motto is to give them courage; humans love motto.

I don't think they learned until now. Britain had a long history of wars, either with France or within itself or as a consequence of the imperial expansions. My point is that when you want a war with 30,000,000 casualties, you never go to religion: but you go to the Kuffar -like the Mongols- or the west -WW1 & WW2-. 

Kuffar = unbelievers? What is your fucking point. Sounds like word salad to me, honestly.  Who "wants a war with 30mio casualties? What war? WTF?

Of course you are a non-believer -kaffir-; or did you believe in God??

I do know that the west has good people in it,

THAT WAS NOT MY FUCKING POINT!!!!!!
My point was, in reply to

AtlasS33 Wrote: Isn't it hilarious, to see a European whining about "Islamic Terrorism"? despite his brethren killing Millions in Japan just a few years ago? I mean if you use something monstrous like atomic bombs; what do you except your enemy to come carrying? flowers???

that you tried to defend killing innocent people (terrorists doing the killing), by claiming that other innocent people got killed (relatives of terrorists) In your case you switched over to the nukes dropped over Japan to illustrate the suffering of the first innocent victims, WHICH STILL DOESNT JUSTIFY KILLIN GOF MORE AND OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE IN RETURN.
Got it? YOU DONT HAVE TO KISS MY ASS AFFIRMING THAT THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE HERE. THAT.WAS.NOT.MY.FUCKING.POINT

Fucking hell, i have to explain to this guy his own arguments.
*calms down and drops in a valium*

No I never defended the killing of innocents; so this table flipping tactics -which is very cheap- is quite useless. Please read my post again.


I will repeat what I said: when you burn others, you get burned. That's why in school, you don't hit others and steal their lunch, because tomorrow they will hit back.
Which is the argument of terrorists when they make a disgusting crime; their argument is always: "but America bombs the innocent in Iraq". Maybe if America stopped bombing civilians in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan the terrorists will have no argument?

---

World War 1 was the next huge war, followed by World War 2. and non of them were waged because of religion.

You forgot a few.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-57270-p...pid1848788

---

No, but this is the time of the west's dominance, and just like they are at the top of the pyramid, we tend to blame them more.

After all the atomic bomb is their invention; not mine.

So, in other words, you're just pointing fingers for the sake of pointing fingers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are nothing but a full fledged apologist for Muslim and Arab atrocities, and every post and thread you make simply proves it.

You are a disgusting human being for looking for reasons to excuse such things, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

But if it's anything that hard core Muslims lack...

Meh...

---

But it wasn't the mistake of Bush alone. When the invasion of Iraq took place in 2003, Bush and a whole administration had the U.K as an ally, and a whole bunch of Arab governments as allies, and let's not forget the Shiite Iraqies who were the replacement of Saddam Hussein.

The American people didn't move until the economical aftermath broke their back; because of the unjust war and the sectarian disaster the U.S caused in Iraq.

Let's be straight about this: the west stood with the two components that set the Middle East to flames: the Shiites in Iraq, and the Wahhabi Sunnies in Saudi Arabia. The support the U.S gave to these to components was behind their terrible crimes in the region for so long, that if somebody is willing to research what I'm saying.

Where were the American public from this unjust turn of events, caused by their government of choice? the one and only part gaining from the war between Sunnies and Shiites is the western powers, and the missionaries keeping the iron heated.

Even today in 2018, the American public repeats the same action by voting Trump.
It's not a blame game Brian; I do treat everyone as an individual, I don't blame you or label you or judge you. But your labeling of yourself is what I mostly take: you are a human born in the U.S, that doesn't mean you are pro Bush or Trump.

But the last elections show that so many there are not like you. Almost a majority.
And the case of Kashoggi is another evidence

---

Supported by the west, especially the Republic zionist regime of Trump -which was favored by almost an Evangelical majority and almost an American majority-.

Populism is the new way, they say

I hate the words "Zionist" as much as I do "anti- Semitic"" 

What makes you or anyone think I blindly support Israel?  I DONT, I do not think Israel gets everything right. But just like they are not going to wipe out all Muslims, you are not going to wipe out Israel. Just like neither Christians NOR Muslims are going to rid the world of atheists. 

It still remains that between the east and the west, AND WE ARE BY NO MEANS PERFECT, but between open states and closed states, the west still has more opportunity to correct mistakes and defend minorities. 

I would only agree right now, that the west is seeing a rise in BULLSHIT nationalism, just like the vile garbage Hitler started and used effectively. But please do not think everyone agrees with that sick crap in the west. 

I am not a blind defender of anything.

Brian.. did you ever read the history of Israel, how it came to be?
Do you realize that the British created it out of thin air? there was nothing called Israel (but in the Bible). Do you realize that the Palestinian people got kicked, killed, butchered by the Jewish newcomers?

I knew Palestinians in my life, a lot actually. And believe me, they are one of the saddest things ever, people who got kicked out of their homes, have no papers, no passports, nothing.

The Israeli regime is a racist, tyrannical regime that existed through the murder of the Palestinians. That's why the resistance in Gazza will never cease, and the hate Muslims have for this regime is never ending.

It's just like the native Americans and the western invaders.

The Israeli regime is just like ISIS or any other terrorist organization, but with more technology.

[Angrboda]

Well if Mr. Axelrod wrote it, it must be true.

I'll take the authors of an expansive three volume encyclopedia on war by actual historians over some internet rando any day of the week.

And seeing as this internet rando has such poor reading comprehension that he mistakes the author for having said something he didn't, that goes double.

[Belacqua]

some internet rando any day of the week.

I thought a rando was someone who feels randy. 

I mean, I'm not denying it, but I wonder how you knew. 

And seeing as this internet rando has such poor reading comprehension that he mistakes the author for having said something he didn't, that goes double.

Does this refer to me? 

I tried to be clear about where I disagreed with the quote, and I gave reasons. It's often said that the rise of the nation-state began with Westphalia. I have no argument with the idea that a lot changed then. I disagreed with the idea that from that point on religion was no longer used as a tool to manipulate people into joining wars for power and wealth. 

If I've misread that I'd be happy to have it pointed out to me.

[Angrboda]

And seeing as this internet rando has such poor reading comprehension that he mistakes the author for having said something he didn't, that goes double.

Does this refer to me? 

I tried to be clear about where I disagreed with the quote, and I gave reasons. It's often said that the rise of the nation-state began with Westphalia. I have no argument with the idea that a lot changed then. I disagreed with the idea that from that point on religion was no longer used as a tool to manipulate people into joining wars for power and wealth. 

If I've misread that I'd be happy to have it pointed out to me.

He said that Europeans began to conceive of war as a legitimate means of furthering the interests of sovereigns.  

This in itself does not imply that Europeans or others conceiving of war as a legitimate means for furthering religious interests stopped.

[Brian37]

Wrong, two fold. WWI wasnt the next big war after the Mogols in Europe, and after the mongols there was religion causing wars and suffering, big time.

Exhibit A: 30 Years war
As the name suggests, it lasted 30(!!!!) years, was all about religion, fought on german soil with much of europe being involved, killing up to 75% of the local population (iirc it was in total some 25% of the whole population). It wasnt not only about religion, no it was an inter-religious war between cahtholics and protestants (like....hold your breath: shiites and sunnites, that why westerner are rolling their eyes so hard about this conflict). In many aspects it was worse than the mongols (apart from the fact that the mongols never made it to germany, because the Khan died of alcoholism).

The belt buckles of german soldiers in WWI (and WWII) read: "Gott mit uns" (god with us). So much for religion not being a part of WWI.

Here are the world's 5 bloodiest wars in history:

1. World War II: Fought from 1939 to 1945, the Second World War is the deadliest conflict in history, with over 70 million fatalities. ...
   
2. Mongol Conquests: ...
   
3. World War I: ...
   
4. The Manchu Conquest of China: ...
   
5. Napoleonic Wars:
   

Source: -google

search term entered: what is the biggest war in history

War of the roses was a dynastic struggle, and britain learned from it, thats the difference to much of the middle east, its an endless cycle of madness. Yes, europe wasnt very civilized for quite some time in quite some areas. Your point is? That religion doesnt cause wars, or because living conditions were bad, they would have been better with religion?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Anarchy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barons%27_War

I don't think they learned until now. Britain had a long history of wars, either with France or within itself or as a consequence of the imperial expansions. My point is that when you want a war with 30,000,000 casualties, you never go to religion: but you go to the Kuffar -like the Mongols- or the west -WW1 & WW2-.

You do not know that hefty discussions about its justification arised in *the west* the day after the first nuke was dropped, and are still going on today?
Whats your point? If americans bomb Iraq, they shouldnt be surprised about terrorists?
I got news for you, we had terrorists (and do have) in Germany since the 70s at least, before any Germany troops fought....oh wait, the german constitution forbids sending german troops to foreign soil to fight. We only send troops to occupy regions, preferably with UN mandates, to suppress violence and terrorism in those areas. German troops arent allowed to engage in attacks, they are limited to self defense. Guess what, terrorists come to Germany to x-mas markets and run over people with Trucks, because of...... what? We had planes hijacked and innocent civilians publicly executed by "people liberation fronts"....why exactly? What have those innocent people done to palestine? What have innocent visitors of a german x-mas market done to deserve to be run over?
Whats the purpose of killing innocent people when innocent people get killed? -1 x -1 = +1? Two wrongs make a good?

I do know that the west has good people in it, and that's what the human race has:good and bad people.
But we are not speaking about the good people now; we are speaking about the criminals that hurt western people before they hurt foreigners; they led Europe and America to a world war once, and now they are doing it again (Trump and his likes).

If you know good people exist in the west, and can accept that I accept there are good people in the East, THAT IS WHERE YOU STOP!

No need to go any further. 

You work on your nuts, I'll work on my nuts.

Crap..... I just realized how that sounded. I don't think either of us want to see the other working on our nuts. I masturbate in private. 

[Brian37]

.........Fuck it!

Atlas first argument

My reply: Religion does move nations, even 300 years after the mongols, as evidenced by the 30y war. I also pointed out it was an EUROPEAN war, so replying with a list of biggest global events misses the point.

I also pointed out that a religious motto was embossed on the belt buckles of German soldiers in WWI 700y after the mongols (in reference to your original claim that religion doesnt motivate nations to go to war, particularly not after the mongols. Your reply: a list containing WWI.

The religious motto is to give them courage; humans love motto.

Kuffar = unbelievers? What is your fucking point. Sounds like word salad to me, honestly.  Who "wants a war with 30mio casualties? What war? WTF?

Of course you are a non-believer -kaffir-; or did you believe in God??

THAT WAS NOT MY FUCKING POINT!!!!!!
My point was, in reply to
that you tried to defend killing innocent people (terrorists doing the killing), by claiming that other innocent people got killed (relatives of terrorists) In your case you switched over to the nukes dropped over Japan to illustrate the suffering of the first innocent victims, WHICH STILL DOESNT JUSTIFY KILLIN GOF MORE AND OTHER INNOCENT PEOPLE IN RETURN.
Got it? YOU DONT HAVE TO KISS MY ASS AFFIRMING THAT THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE HERE. THAT.WAS.NOT.MY.FUCKING.POINT

Fucking hell, i have to explain to this guy his own arguments.
*calms down and drops in a valium*

No I never defended the killing of innocents; so this table flipping tactics -which is very cheap- is quite useless. Please read my post again.


I will repeat what I said: when you burn others, you get burned. That's why in school, you don't hit others and steal their lunch, because tomorrow they will hit back.
Which is the argument of terrorists when they make a disgusting crime; their argument is always: "but America bombs the innocent in Iraq". Maybe if America stopped bombing civilians in Iraq, Yemen, Afghanistan the terrorists will have no argument?

---

You forgot a few.

https://atheistforums.org/thread-57270-p...pid1848788

---

So, in other words, you're just pointing fingers for the sake of pointing fingers.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you are nothing but a full fledged apologist for Muslim and Arab atrocities, and every post and thread you make simply proves it.

You are a disgusting human being for looking for reasons to excuse such things, and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

But if it's anything that hard core Muslims lack...

Meh...

---

I hate the words "Zionist" as much as I do "anti- Semitic"" 

What makes you or anyone think I blindly support Israel?  I DONT, I do not think Israel gets everything right. But just like they are not going to wipe out all Muslims, you are not going to wipe out Israel. Just like neither Christians NOR Muslims are going to rid the world of atheists. 

It still remains that between the east and the west, AND WE ARE BY NO MEANS PERFECT, but between open states and closed states, the west still has more opportunity to correct mistakes and defend minorities. 

I would only agree right now, that the west is seeing a rise in BULLSHIT nationalism, just like the vile garbage Hitler started and used effectively. But please do not think everyone agrees with that sick crap in the west. 

I am not a blind defender of anything.

Brian.. did you ever read the history of Israel, how it came to be?
Do you realize that the British created it out of thin air? there was nothing called Israel (but in the Bible). Do you realize that the Palestinian people got kicked, killed, butchered by the Jewish newcomers?

I knew Palestinians in my life, a lot actually. And believe me, they are one of the saddest things ever, people who got kicked out of their homes, have no papers, no passports, nothing.

The Israeli regime is a racist, tyrannical regime that existed through the murder of the Palestinians. That's why the resistance in Gazza will never cease, and the hate Muslims have for this regime is never ending.

It's just like the native Americans and the western invaders.

The Israeli regime is just like ISIS or any other terrorist organization, but with more technology.

NO, If you do not like Israel picking on Palestine, and you dont like Christians picking on Muslims, do not think everyone in the west agrees with Bibi. I hate Bibi as much as I do Trump. But that does not change that the leaders of Islamic Countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia are enemies of Israel.

If you are not willing to lump Ann Frank in with the likes of Bibi, like I am not willing to lump the likes of Malala in with Bin Laden, then the real issue is getting more humans beyond tribalism.

Our species was around long before Jews and Christians and Muslims. Our species displayed compassion and cruelty long before as well. Stupidly though, humans are still stuck on religious tribalism, INCLUDING JEWS, but also Christians and Muslims.

[downbeatplumb]

It would be more convincing for muslims to convince us that islam isn't so bad if they stopped doing horrible things everywhere they gain a foothold.