God can make infinitely more special/valuable things than this universe

[tackattack]

I believe there was a flood chronologically around the time of the Kings, that it rained a long time and it was worldwide according to the people in central and southern Mesopotamia who had traveled probably not much further than they would need to sacrifice their goats.

Jehanne, faith is not the absence of reason or ignoring of evidence.

[Jehanne]

I believe there was a flood chronologically around the time of the Kings, that it rained a long time and it was worldwide according to the people in central and southern Mesopotamia who had traveled probably not much further than they would need to sacrifice their goats.

Jehanne, faith is not the absence of reason or ignoring of evidence.

All I can suggest is a course and/or book in prehistory, such as:

World Prehistory and Archaeology: Pathways Through Time 4th Edition

What you are insinuating is that the South won the Civil War; I cannot believe that any more than I can believe that there actually was a worldwide flood sometime after 10,000 BCE.  Of course, no one (and, I mean no one) in the Academy believes this.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, but Tack doesn't actually believe in The Deluge.  He believes that it might have rained real bad over some crackpots house.  Enough to sweep away their chickens, I guess. I'm getting the impression that he thinks magic book is just as full of shit as any atheist does.

[tackattack]

I do not believe the flood was worldwide in scope. But for a goat herder without GPS the world is only as far as you can see. I would have kudos'd that Gae without the magic book and full of shit comments.

[The Grand Nudger]

I have a talent for stating the things that other people believe in ways that make them uncomfy.  Just laugh, ya prude...it's not as if I didn't nail it.

(if I wanted to be a real dick I would have opined at length about the duplicity of christian communication and facetiousness of those beliefs being communicated)

[Mister Agenda]

I've noted that a 'finely-tuned' universe is the only kind that doesn't require supernatural intervention for us to exist in it. It would be way more spectacular if we existed in, say, a universe with no Strong Nuclear Force and thrived any way, just as we are.

[The Grand Nudger]

Indeed.  Finding ourselves here is mundane.  Finding ourselves as we are and surviving on the surface of a pulsar...now -that- would be miraculous!

[Drich]

This question can be answered with the same answer.

qualifiers like "best, greatest in creation" is all a matter of perspective. It seems to God Love is one of the greatest attributes or things one can possess and give as it seem to be the currency the after life works on. 

Which is also why I said God uses our most valued items as common building materials, which reduces their values to little or nothing more than common cobble stones. To us our system of value is different, what we deem valued or the best, is common fodder.

Think about that for a second.

So to now ask has the best been created? The question need to be first asked by who's standards? who can judge what is best or greatest if our current best or greatest are no more important to God than common rocks and gravel?

So then if God hold something like Love with such high esteem and you don't see it as anything special, then by what standard what imperial measure do you use to judge best and or greatest?

That is why this answer works for both questions. it comes down to how does a finite being measure the work of an infinate God? what measure can one possible use to judge one creation greater or better than another, if you can not see how one creation touches and effects the whole of creation over it's entire life time?


-or to put it another way.. what do you think is better or greater than what has been created? by what measure or authority do you make this assessment? Does this assessment only concern you and this time or does it concern everyone for eternity, and is the outcome always better? How can you finite being say it will always be better?

Do you see the problem? even if you are proud enough to answer the question you have no authority to guarantee the result as always being better. meaning your standard as a finite being is unable to judge what a infinite being has already done. at best you can only speak to you and yours which has nothing to do with greatest or best..

Notably, my inability to detect a supposedly omnipotent God's infinitely better creations, has no bearing on said creations. It is odd to think my inability to detect the products of the supposed God's omnipotence, would affect said omnipotent power.

As a simple analogy: If I were a layman when Einstein were alive, I may not have understood what Einstein was thinking, but I could have correctly determined that Einstein would have already done far better than perform simple arithmetic calculations, like the calculation 1 + 1. My inability to understand Einstein's complex works, would not in anyway inhibit the reality that Einstein would have long done far more than simple addition operations.

And thus the question remains: Do you feel this universe's creation represents the end of God's supposedly unending power?

your grasp of the infinite from your finite perspective only puts you one or two levels below God. If God were limited to einstein's ability to calculate math your role would not be that of a laymen human, but maybe that of a snail or slug maybe a turtle if you think yourself smart/complex. In that your world only consists of what concerns you to sustain your life and maybe reproduce. Your knowledge of einstein let alone his calculations would be unfathomable even to the smartest turtle. heck you would have no idea of who or what einstein was unless he decided to pick you up and interact with you, and even then your interactions would center around the things in your world not his.. Meaning if you were his pet all you would know is this is the guy that feeds you, you would not know him as einstein let alone have the insight to even understand what 1=1 was nor even approach his complex work in space and time.. unless he built a bridge or an apparatus that would gift you more knowledge... (which is what God has done for us) but even then how much understanding would a slug have concerning einstein's greater work?

The problem here is you are too proud and see your self on par or nearly on par with God and wrongfully assume that you could indeed have the capacity to understand things on God's level. you put yourself in a position to judge something by definition (let alone whether God is real or not) should be completely off the table for you by definitions and simple logic alone.

A finite being can not conceive or fully understand the infinite. to judge a work one must fully understand it. You are trying to attempt to judge creation and everything in it, yet do not have a complete understanding over it let alone the being who created it.

[Jehanne]

I do not believe the flood was worldwide in scope. But for a goat herder without GPS the world is only as far as you can see. I would have kudos'd that Gae without the magic book and full of shit comments.

There are at least 10^24 stars in the observable Universe; it is impossible for me to believe that some ancient Palestine tribal peoples were the recipient of some supernatural revelation to the same degree that it is impossible for me to believe that some Aztec god is going to show-up someday and destroy the World.

[tackattack]

Jehanne, I'd love to meet alien theists and atheists and communicate about their beliefs in the universe. As this ecosystem holds all of the intelligent life I'm aware of, that doesn't mean we are unique in the universe. We have however had a long enough period without being wiped out by an asteroid entirely to develop intelligence and develop into what we have today in about 1/14th of the time our sun has before it goes out. That gives me hope that we can overcome our intelligent differences and prevent self-destruction to protect ourselves from extinction. In the meantime, we're very finite beings comparatively. If not worrying about some Aztec god's vengeance works for you then, more power to you. If you see no evidence for God, or god(s) then no one is asking you to believe something impossible.