How to discuss religion with believers?

[Acrobat]

So my question is: how do you engage in a discussion with these people without it derailing? It's as if they were willfully ignoring or filtering some information, I don't really get it. I'm not really trying to convert them, but rather trying to understand the reasoning that leads them to believe in whatever religion... but no matter how hard I try to understand, their logic is just not in order. Sometimes I'm literally asking them to help me believe in their religion, but every time it's just not enough information to warrant any belief.

For starters people's religious beliefs are often attached to their sense of self, and personal identities (so is atheism), so questioning people, particularly in a critical way, about things deeply personal to them, is often perceived as attacks, especially coming from someone you’re not that close to.

So the fact that you're often met with defensive responses shouldn’t be that surprising.

Most of these religions are sketchy and superficial and fail to address many points (eg, how are animals or plants judged? And what about cavemen that didn't know how to speak and communicate and just hit things with their club? And what about people who are born in such conditions where knowledge is kept hidden to them? What about people who are born physically or mentally ill and can't really help themselves? What about those who are forced to behave in some way? If we really must assume there is a creator, then I'd picture it as some neutral and uncaring entity that wanders in the universe. No hell or heaven, just something that spawns life here and there and moves on).

As a religious person myself, I don’t know any serious religious person invested in questions about how animals and plants are judged, I’m just struggling be a good dad, a husband, a brother, friend, fighting against my own selfish tendencies and resentments, working to restore all the broken pieces, that seem to have been broken for ages, long before I was even thought in anyone’s head.

I think an observation about a religious view, made by the writer Cormac McCarthy, while working with scientist at the Santa Fe Institute sums it best:

“I have friends at the Institute. They’re just really bright guys who do really difficult work solving difficult problems, who say ““It’s really more important to be good than it is to be smart.” And I agree it is more important to be good than it is to be smart. That is all I can offer you.”

[polymath257]

2) A mol of air is about 25L at room temperature and corresponds to circa 29g. Taking out of the picture energy release from the new bonding/unbonding, 25L of air will produce circa 29g of gold. For the record, 25L is about 1/3 of your volume. If God locally created a vacuum to remove those 25L, the nearby air would instantly be pulled back in to re-equilibrate the system. 10 square miles of air? You'd create a city of gold. You don't even know what you are talking about. Secondly, he can perform this trick in our institute, where we have the machines to reveal the emissions of electromagnetic waves or to inspect a material crystalline nature. If you want I can lay down a precise plan on how to test mr God powers, but that wouldn't satisfy you either because we have to look for God on "his terms". 

 no.. sorry sport.. here we 'proof our work by providing references and support material we don't pretend to just know otherwise you can be made the fool when someone asks for supporting material or simply provides the material they have that blows you out of the water.

Yes a mol of air is  28.9647 g/mol.

but let say the atomic weight for a single molecule of air is 30.0000u for simple math sake

as the atomic weight of oxy is 15.9999u

https://www.google.com/search?q=mol+mass...e&ie=UTF-8

atomic weight of an atom of nitrogen is: 14.0067 u

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AJZ...UZ4towQyRg

( which also leaves room for argon and the other stuff)

but the atomic weight of gold is a little bit heavier.. little bit because we are dealing with atomic weight, but apples to apples it is a hellva lot heavier.

Au=196.9665690 u
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/molec...d_679.html

can you see that three atoms that roughly make up air (remember we cheated and rounded up to 30) is far lighter than just one ATOM of gold. if fact 30 air molecules of air a needed or 90 atoms of the three primary air components are needed to equate the density of just 1 gold atom. That means in mass there is a 90:1 ratio needed of air to just one unit of gold..

I think you need to do your division again here. One atom of gold would correspond to about 6-7 'molecules of 'air', not 30 or 90. Let's be generous and use the 7:1 ratio.

Meaning if you want one ton of gold you have to convert 90 tons of oxy nitrogen and Argon..

Correction: 7 tons.

Now let put your small box mind that could not understand this simple equation but call me stupid inside your house or building at work when you challenge God to do this. and he says sure let us show this monkey man who and what God is despite what others may have to go through.. and turn air into a ton of gold..

Now..
Riddle me this, does the whole of your house contain enough volume of aire to satifify the 90 to 1 ratio of air needed? Meaning if I pull a hard vacuum on your house (30hg)could i displace 90 tons of the atoms needed for your request???

What if God kept your house sealed and from implosion. because truly as you missed my point before You have no way of making sure air was being converted into gold otherwise.. I in slight of hand could turn air into gold. The only way you could see or know a atomic change was happening is if you were caught up in said vacuum.. Which would ironically (as your last breath was being pulled from your lungs) be the proof you needed lest the whole 'test' be for nothing.

So quick to flash your flare you missed the whole point completely.

Well, shall we compute? One mole of gas at standard temperature and pressure occupies a volume of .0224 cubic meters. So a cubic meter of gas has 1/.0224 = 44.5 moles of gas, which in the case of air is 29*44.5 grams, which is about 1300 grams, or 1.3 kilograms (just under 3 pounds).

Now, what is the volume of air in a typical house? Well, If we assume a 2000 square foot floor plan and 10 ft ceilings, that makes for about 566 cubic meters, so the mass of air in such a house would be about 1.3*566, or about 750 kilograms.
So, yes, this is under a ton. It would take a largish house to have a ton of air in it. 15 foot ceilings and 2000 square feet would be plenty, though.

Most people are surprised by how much the mass of air actually is in even fairly small volumes. Ordinary rooms can have hundreds of pounds of air.

[Drich]

So life experience is actually a trial of God, I see. Completely not flawed reasoning.
Also please, stop mentioning the gold thing, it just depresses me how you are trampling over chemistry.

metered hardships as well as metered blessings can indeed be trial. A trial specifically shapes one's understanding or changes one's world view concerning God. a general life experience has nothing to do with what one thinks about God.

glob.. what I am saying is if idk you have an urge to read the bible then until you read the bible that is far as you will go. if it means ask me 1000 questions then that means those questions need to be written out.. Or if you feel you need to stop doing meth and watching donkey porn then stop doing meth and watchin donkey porn. Kind do what God puts on your heart/things you know to be right.

So doing what I want to do in that moment is not my thought but some idea that God put in me?  It's more of an urging or a leading.. Like maybe I could understand the bible more if I didn't smoke a bowl before I cracked the book open.. Over time the message becomes more pronounced and the net reward greater.

And I would like to see said pit.

So did I. ask maybe he will let you see it and come back as well to tell of it. Most who see it are consumed by it.

but again without math without algebra without formal training of any sort. and again all instantaneously I was drawing as they where describing the problem. I was finished before they were done describing what they needed and what they tried. This was truly for me an out of the blue deal.

I gotta ask: how did you end up in whatever position you ended up that lets you draw circuits and makes your coworkers believe you as if you were chief engineer? It just sounds too surreal when you narrate this story, it's like some crucial information is being left out. I can't imagine some illiterate random coming to our institute and telling us how to change the parameters of our process to achieve better yields, and I can't imagine us taking his word for good and following his orders.

I was there to translate. The italian engineers put on a school every year to certify techs. They have terrible thick accents, but I could understand what they were saying by their electrical drawings. so for the whole 7 day class they would show mea subject drawn out and I would work with them and make sure I understood the subject, then basically allowed them to do their translation, helped fill in the gaps and answer any and all questions or relayed them to the italian engineers. Same group of engineers were working on this electric/battery operated system With a local Mil-spec government battery contractor. they franchise people here in the US wanted me to do the same for the italian engineers and american engineers as I did with the italians and the student technicians. As the american engineers had too many questions the italians could not answer. So the meeting started out with a list of grievances or problems the american and italians had as a point of incompatibility. And BTW I was a franchise owner of this particular brand of refrigeration system for central Fl, and my father was the director of automotive education in a local vo-tech school who hosted this whole 1 week certification course where the US franchise owners met with the North american distributors and a handful of italian specialist engineers.
We hosted this in central Fl because of the weather and it being the off season for refrigeration sales.
Which is why I could spend a week away from work and why we were able to jump on the build so quickly.
So I was sent in to try and bridge a gap as a last ditch effort between the two engineering firms as they had been working on this for months now with no progress, and time was running out. and at the end of the 15 min presentation of grievances I had a solution before I said a word to anyone.

this was for me you will need this then this then that draw this draw that then that like 20 different componets then picked up a blue pe and draew all of the 12 vdc connections. then red for 24 vdc then gree for 48vdc then orange for 230 3p 60 hz. no thouht no guessing just draw the pics I was being shown and connect the dots.

ask anyone here that's me! As I said idiot savant or God.. 

but you also have to consider the whole business side again operating well beyond my scope, and spiritual incite. 

maybe.. and maybe 20 years lucky with the business as well.

Here's a line of thought.. intuitive or not idk.. but look at how you are trying to isolate and address each specific God intervened story I provide you with as a single one off event or something like the intuitive thinker thing.. but will not consider everything at once. Again if I had one story to tell it would be one thing but my whole life changed. we haven't even talked about all the health issues I have been spared from.

Not considering everything at once is exactly what YOU ARE NOT doing. Before you even said that you've been scoring 6s for the past 20y, when you actually told me of all the "trials" you were put in front of. You are either cherrypicking or flat out ignoring all the 1s and 2s and only want to see the 6s. I've already said before, your life just looks like a life: worse than some, better than others. Nothing special.

and I do not understand how you do not see the out come of a trail being a 6+ My trials bring me closer to God! My trials bring me closer to my wife! my trials have me love this life! You avoid those trials and you live an oppsite life. you even said not that you would commit suicide but you don't have a reason to live outside a mundane curiosity... Is that a 6 in your book? Again because I see how a trial shapes my world view I do not see a struggle as a bad or negative thing! you only see the negative because as I sad you have isolated every event as being independent of one another!! Don't you understand that the sum total of your life experience makes and molds wh you are, that you would be different if more bad happened to you or you would be different yeet still if more good happened to you.. The "6" here is the over all consistency my life has provided to the point I know if I bet 6 to win or any variation of 6 whether it be evens, black or the number 6 itself I know I will come out a winner! you only see or seem to count the times the number is bet on and paid out. again how narrow of a world view. You are stuck playing craps while so many other oppertunities to play 6 and win are out there. it makes you think that rolling dice is the only way to come up a winner with 6. That's your problem. You think you have the only lock on how the world works and can't be bothered by how someone else is beating the house!

And you have to understand that it does not mean there is a demon either. And as long as you don't prove with facts the existence of said demon, it remains a speculation, a thought that is not backed up by evidence. Again, it's your duty to demonstrate it exists, not our duty to demonstrate it doesn't. Because otherwise I could say that it's Sauron behind everything and you can't disprove it. Same reasoning.

you assumed too much without reading what I said. What makes addiction demonic in nature is the fact that the user the addicted no mater who it is or their drug or drink of choice become the same person. same personality same disposition same lies. the only separation is in the degree they are addicted.. meaning how far down the rabbit hole they are. It's like the person they were takes a back seat to this demonic personality. If you know someone deep into addiction/been arrested a few time been to rehab a few times, they share common personality traits. That my confused friend is what is being identified as a demon. do you understand we are not using your definition based on some 80's album cover, the definition has since expanded to include a force that compels elicit or specific sinful behavior.

the same can be said about the 'science of orgins' paleontology deep space astronomy and the whole host of theoretical works that can not be practically utilized. 

I think you confused astronomy with astrology

yeah, because we can plot and describe a 3 dimension phenoma from a single point in time and space. or how we can take a radio telescope data and determine what the climate is like on a moon so far away we would have to be ten light years closer to even see a spec in the sky... In the 1970 I had a poster of an artist rendition of a dual pillar nebula that was said to be how we imagine how a star is born... Now google 'dual pillar nebula' ITS THE SAME EXACT PICTURE!!!! This time the caption reads "taken by the hubble space telescope!!!!

I'm Calling B/S on this one. on all of it. I've seen the data streams that come back from radio telescops and do you know what the 'translated' info tells you? there are not pictures there is nothing about the weather, it gives an approximation of how far a body a mass is and maybe how big it is. that's it! no weather reports, no oxygen/Class "M" planet data all of that is speculation. which makes deep space astromony as reliable as any faith based work. Meaning you must want to believe it to be true as a force of will to accept all the data it puts out as being true.. and again this measure of faith is far grater than that of a mustard seed.

http://www.gb.nrao.edu/20m/peak/latest/

So everything that ever was and will be in the universe was compressed into a basket ball size sphere? why cube why not polyhedron why not a 2 dimensional mass why not a bowling ball or better yet a massive super planet? and then what happened? just bang no reason/was too compressed to the oppsite happens. and everything appears. bother that is a god did it or the universe did it or the universe works in mysterious ways If I ever heard one!!! Meaning there is no difference in faith in saying big bang or god did it! how can you say one is better both are faith statements bruh!

I've already written a big paragraph and provided enough sources to scientific papers and ways to access locked up stuff, but you people seem to believe that scientists are some kind of black magic cult that "believes" in things like you do. The fact that you bring the term faith together with science says it all. For you the big bang theory is some fantasy story like your god, no wonder...

brother to anyone without their head u the arse for science big banging basket balls is as Faith demanding as "god did it in 7 days!" only people who have drank all the scientific "flav-o-Aide" Think this is unshakable truth.

Glob take GC out of the equasion and plug in huggy CL or me. The point is NOT WHO YOU ARE SPEAKING WITH!!!! BUT THE MESSAGE Read what I wrote again. If literal angel of God made himself know to you and had nothing to say to you he would literally be less of an angel if one of us brought you a message that cut you to your quick.

trying to get you to look outside the box in how the Holy Spirit sends messages to you.

You keep repeating this sentence and I still don't get what it means. The message contained in that blabber post was nonsense.

I told you what it means. it means don't expect God to meet you on your terms

Give a monkey a gun and if he shoots someone it is not the monkey's fault. In turn give a crack head a million dollars and he OD's in a week you indeed killed him. Someone like that has no internal control anymore the demon of addiction has taken control, and it will make them use till the money or their breath runs out.

So now you compare monkeys to humans. But didn't you say before that only the most recent humans (6k years ago) are the "blessed ones" and that anything that came before, including humanoids and monkeys, don't have a soul and aren't comparable to the actual humans? I don't forget the stuff you say. Also who are you to decide who has control and who hasn't? If his willpower is strong enough and you want to put him through one of your godly trials, then it's fair to give him the same money and see how it evolves. Then again with demons eh...

Man in the garden/adam is man with a soul.
Man outside the garden is evolved man/man without a soul. Still 100% homosapeian. but monkey man.

So for fun people who believe in God man with a soul, the rest who demand to be decendands of a common monkey ancestor... monkey man. It's a little fun with having your cake and eat it too.

On the simple side it is praying "Dear lord I know I am a sinner/broken your laws, and I know I will continue to do so for the rest of my life however I ask that you forgive me of my sins again you and my fellow man any way. Then as a start you must live out this example of forgiving those who sin against you. This make take a while if you have an a-hole father as I do, but over time try and forgive those as if it where you who needed forgivness. the rest will come over time. Meaning trying to resist or abstaining from sin will be something you will eventually want to do even if you can't. That is call repentance. where you internally hate sin even if you are still tied to it. Paul explains this in much better detail in romans chapters 6,7 and 8

As someone who doesn't believe in sins and whatever, of course all of this sounds as unnecessary self-imposed limitations and punishment, but I guess that in the scope of this religion it has its place... Perhaps. Thanks for clarifying.

People that don't believe in sin but have their own 'moral code' you mean?
That is a difference without a distinction.

and you tested the god you found and got back total silence. so then you rebuild have that verion of God tested and you rebuild. not every verion will be 100% wrong, so you hold on to what is right and rebuild everything else. I'd say in side a year you could have a good working understanding of Who god is and how he works.

And how do you know what is "right"? Just a hunch? Having the support of God at the end of your trial.

we are supposed to fail alot. because what we are doing is pealing away the personal I want a god who does... and are left with the God described in scripture. 

So it's indeed bad instructables.

Not free will (that is a late 1200 greek construct/philosophy but to give us choice yes the bible/ God sees us as slaves to him or sin but even slaves had choice. The tree was choice to be in (not the city of heaven but to be in his presence/heaven or to serve a master of sin who promises complete freedom but only dilivers pain and suffering. Imagine that God created Adam and eve right after the earth was formed 100 bazzillion years or go or whatever 'science says now.' and he planted the seeds that would later become the oceans land animals plants birds and even man outside the garden. But inside the garden God created a paradise that would resemble what the world would evolve into about (6000 or so years ago) Why then? because God knew that was when the fall was going to be. Yes he would loose Adam and eve but because he planted those seeds the people from the garden would have a world and better yet a people to bless with souls when their kids and their kids kids had children. To one day populate the world with people with souls. So that the may all experience sin. So when it came time to make the choice Eve made (but in reverse/she was alive with God and died, and we in sin are dead to God but choose to live) we would not be courious about sin and could choose (if we chose God) without question or reservation. We could enter heaven and have our sin curiosity quota filled.

So why do this and why not make a race of people in heaven? He did that already with the angels. and over 1/3 of them fell surcombing to sin. lucifer's temptation being too great. So it is written we will live in a place with God for 1000 years. (all of the saved) then satan will be let loose one more time to temp the saved one more time to give those who changed their minds about serving God an way out. Then he and those who want to go with him will be seal in hell for ever. Again it is and it always is about choosing To be with God.

Adam and Eve were given this choice created to be immortal and living with God potentially for billions if not trillions of years before temptation ate them alive, to the point they died from their imortal lives and was given over to the pain and suffering of life outside the garden. This life for us is about the same choice, and we will get a third chance in the next. In short God wants to ensure those who seek to spend eternity with him want to be there under his rule and grace. because eternity is a long long time.

As someone who makes freedom one of his fundamental values, it just defies my intrinsic nature to accept slavery. If the choice we are put in front is indeed to either be God's eternal slaves or have complete freedom in a temporary world, that I'd chose the latter. I'd consciously choose the latter.

where did that second option come from? It is service in Heaven or destruction in Hell... where did the tempoary bit come from/ do you mean to say the time we have here?

I think you don't get that it was the plan all along for the fall. why else plant man outsie the garden?

[snip]

The universe stretches out forever we have forever... I believe the sons those who work as slaves and are trusted and becomes sons get to go out and each given to his ability.. to one an asteroid maybe to another a planet to develop or maybe to another a whole region of space.. or maybe we are given star ships and told to go explore. The bible does not say much but I know there is a reason for an infinite universe and an infinity amount of time to go and do. If adam and eve lasted billions of years in 2/3 the size of the USA how much more will there be for us to do and accomplish?

What I wonder is why God wants eternal slaves. What for? Once everyone makes it to heaven, what does he need slaves for? It just makes no sense. It's not like he has a war to fight to warrant an army of slaves. Also, if he's so allmighty and powerful as it's claimed, what does he need slaves for? Can't he make everything on his own anyways? What's the point?

The bible does not say eternal slaves. we serve God to become sons. meaning we serve God with rules and guidelines/as slaves until we can proove our selves to be trusted independantly to do whatever our jobs will be alone.

Analogy about zombies

I think you re-created the same scenario without even realizing it. There is indeed one particular that you omitted: who created and spread the virus to begin with?

If you include that information, then you have a God who created and spread a virus that infected everyone, and then he offered a cure for it. It's what some nasty pharmacy could do, lol. Spread a illness and then sell the cure.
[/quote]

what if we were the illness

[Drich]

 no.. sorry sport.. here we 'proof our work by providing references and support material we don't pretend to just know otherwise you can be made the fool when someone asks for supporting material or simply provides the material they have that blows you out of the water.

Yes a mol of air is  28.9647 g/mol.

but let say the atomic weight for a single molecule of air is 30.0000u for simple math sake

as the atomic weight of oxy is 15.9999u

https://www.google.com/search?q=mol+mass...e&ie=UTF-8

atomic weight of an atom of nitrogen is: 14.0067 u

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AJZ...UZ4towQyRg

( which also leaves room for argon and the other stuff)

but the atomic weight of gold is a little bit heavier.. little bit because we are dealing with atomic weight, but apples to apples it is a hellva lot heavier.

Au=196.9665690 u
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/molec...d_679.html

can you see that three atoms that roughly make up air (remember we cheated and rounded up to 30) is far lighter than just one ATOM of gold. if fact 30 air molecules of air a needed or 90 atoms of the three primary air components are needed to equate the density of just 1 gold atom. That means in mass there is a 90:1 ratio needed of air to just one unit of gold..

I think you need to do your division again here. One atom of gold would correspond to about 6-7 'molecules of 'air', not 30 or 90. Let's be generous and use the 7:1 ratio.

Meaning if you want one ton of gold you have to convert 90 tons of oxy nitrogen and Argon..


Now let put your small box mind that could not understand this simple equation but call me stupid inside your house or building at work when you challenge God to do this. and he says sure let us show this monkey man who and what God is despite what others may have to go through.. and turn air into a ton of gold..

Now..
Riddle me this, does the whole of your house contain enough volume of aire to satifify the 90 to 1 ratio of air needed? Meaning if I pull a hard vacuum on your house (30hg)could i displace 90 tons of the atoms needed for your request???

What if God kept your house sealed and from implosion. because truly as you missed my point before You have no way of making sure air was being converted into gold otherwise.. I in slight of hand could turn air into gold. The only way you could see or know a atomic change was happening is if you were caught up in said vacuum.. Which would ironically (as your last breath was being pulled from your lungs) be the proof you needed lest the whole 'test' be for nothing.

So quick to flash your flare you missed the whole point completely.

Well, shall we compute? One mole of gas at standard temperature and pressure occupies a volume of .0224 cubic meters. So a cubic meter of gas has 1/.0224 = 44.5 moles of gas, which in the case of air is 29*44.5 grams, which is about 1300 grams, or 1.3 kilograms (just under 3 pounds).

Now, what is the volume of air in a typical house? Well, If we assume a 2000 square foot floor plan and 10 ft ceilings, that makes for about 566 cubic meters, so the mass of air in such a house would be about 1.3*566, or about 750 kilograms.
So, yes, this is under a ton. It would take a largish house to have a ton of air in it. 15 foot ceilings and 2000 square feet would be plenty, though.

Most people are surprised by how much the mass of air actually is in even fairly small volumes. Ordinary rooms can have hundreds of pounds of air.

here's where your confusion is in the conversion of mols to atoms. The point of the conversation was to witness God Change air to gold on a atomic level, so rather than convert I used the atomic weight of the atoms themselves. So to make a ton of gold even at a 7:1 ratio (your numbers not mine) you need 7 tons of air, as by your numbers gold is 7 times heavier than air. 

The point is it takes a larger than a 1:1 exchange to make gold from air. you will need way way more air molecules of air to make one u of gold. so if you had a ton of air in your house you are 6 tons short of making one ton of gold using your numbers.

You guys kill me. you make yourself look stupid for the sake of trying to show me up on a math issue when you miss the whole point of the problem, and screw up your own solution.

[Scientia]

I'll post the complete answers after, but this post alone deserves its standalone response.

@Drich

  no.. sorry sport.. here we 'proof our work by providing references and support material we don't pretend to just know otherwise you can be made the fool when someone asks for supporting material or simply provides the material they have that blows you out of the water.

Yes a mol of air is  28.9647 g/mol. 

but let say the atomic weight for a single molecule of air is 30.0000u for simple math sake

as the atomic weight of oxy is 15.9999u

https://www.google.com/search?q=mol+mass...e&ie=UTF-8

atomic weight of an atom of nitrogen is: 14.0067 u

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1AJZ...UZ4towQyRg

( which also leaves room for argon and the other stuff)

but the atomic weight of gold is a little bit heavier.. little bit because we are dealing with atomic weight, but apples to apples it is a hellva lot heavier.

Au=196.9665690 u
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/molec...d_679.html

can you see that three atoms that roughly make up air (remember we cheated and rounded up to 30) is far lighter than just one ATOM of gold. if fact 30 air molecules of air a needed or 90 atoms of the three primary air components are needed to equate the density of just 1 gold atom. That means in mass there is a 90:1 ratio needed of air to just one unit of gold..

Meaning if you want one ton of gold you have to convert 90 tons of oxy nitrogen and Argon.. 

1) You ask for references for something that is basic chemistry. You don't know anything about it? Cool, you can look up any periodic table for this kind of information, just realize that copy-pasting 6 figures atomic weights from wikipedia in here only makes you appear silly. No one uses 6 figures in normal calculations, especially when the number is 15.999996 (which anyone will rationally round up to 16). Look up what precision and accuracy are.

2) You clearly don't know what "mol", "atomic weight" and "molecules" even mean, and this is very evident to me. 90 tons of air are needed to create 1 ton of gold? Congratulations sir, you just destroyed the first fundamental law of chemistry, the principle of mass conservation:

The law of conservation of mass or principle of mass conservation states that for any system closed to all transfers of matter and energy, the mass of the system must remain constant over time, as system's mass cannot change, so quantity cannot be added nor removed. Hence the quantity of mass is conserved over time.

Just in case it didn’t reach you, 1 ton of gold is equal to 1 ton of air. (Ever heard of the joke “what weighs more, 1 pound of lead or 1 pound of feathers?”).

Also, bad math. Air is roughly made of 20% Oxygen and 80% Nitrogen, but oxygen and nitrogen are present in nature in the form of molecules not atoms, more specifically as O2 and N2. Your savage addition of the atomic weights, 16 + 14, to get 30 uma is downright wrong. Mind me, the number itself is close to the final number, but how you got it is downright wrong (and I tutored enough students to know that you did just that). This is how you calculate it:
Legend:
W = atomic/molecular weight (g/mol)
m = mass (g)
d = density (g/cm3)
T = temperature (°C or K)
P = pressure (atm)
V = volume (L)
n = number of moles (mol)
R = gas constant (atm*L/Kmol)

W(O2) = 32 g/mol
W(N2) = 28 g/mol
Air composition = 20% O2 + 80% N2
W(air) = 0.2*32 + 0.8*28 = 28.8 g/mol
In this example let's consider 1 mole of air for ease. By definition, a mole is

n = m/W

if we want to find out how many grams 1 mole of air is, then 

n = m/W  -->  m = n*W = (1 mol)*(28.8 g/mol) = 28.8 g

So 1 mole of air is 28.8 g. But air is gaseous in standard conditions (T = 25°C = 298 K, P = 1 atm), so we want to express it in terms of volume. From the gas law we'll get the volume:

PV = nRT --> V = nRT/P = (1 mol)*(0.082 atm*L/Kmol)*(298 K)/(1 atm) = 24.4 L

So 1 mole of air is equal to 28.8 g which is equal to 24.4 L.

According to the principle of mass conservation, the mass in a closed system is constant. This means that if our system comprises only 1 mol of air (28.8 g), and our godlike alchemist converted this mass in gold, then the final mass of gold will be the exact same, that is 28.8 g. So now we want to find out what we would get by converting 28.8 g (or 24.4L) of air into gold, either in terms of mass or volume:

W(Au) = 197 g/mol
d(Au) = 19.32 g/cm3

So our equivalence will be

m(air) = m(Au)

28.8 g(air) = 28.8 g(Au)

But 28.8 g of air was also equal to 1 mol air and 24.4L air, so

1 mol(air) = 24.4 L(air) = 28.8 g(air) = 28.8 g(Au)

So now, what is the volume of 28.8 g of gold? And what are the moles of gold?
d = m/V  -->  V = m/d
V(Au) = 28.8 g/19.32 g/cm3 = 1.49 cm3

n = m/W
n(Au) = 28.8 g/197 g/mol = 0.146 mol

So 1 mol of air, which is 24.4L or 28.8 g, would be converted to 28.8 g of gold which corresponds to 0.146 mol or 1.49 cm3 of gold (a small gold nugget).

As you can see, calculating the moles of gold isn’t even necessary for our example. Why did I bother to do it anyways? I did it to show you that what you were talking about was the molar ratio of air:gold, not the mass ratio. 
The air:gold molar ratio is the ratio between the moles of air and the moles of gold:

R = 1 mol(air)/0.146 mol(Au) = 6.84 (even in this case your math was off. 90:1? wtf?)

Which is the number that polymath found. However, he too was incorrect, as what you both were comparing here are the moles, not the masses. What you have to understand is that a mole is just a way to number things: 14 balls of 1 gram are equal to 1 ball of 14 g. A mole represents that "14". This is the example I typically give to my students, which usually is effective:


Just in case it wasn't clear, a.u. stands for arbitrary unit and here it is an analogy to uma. A weighs 14 uma and B weighs 2 uma. The numbers preceding A and B are an analogy to the number of moles: in this case 1 "mole" of A is equal to 7 "moles" of B in terms of "mass" (14 uma both). My usage of 7 wasn't casual either, because 7 is roughly the molar ratio of air:gold. So in your mind visualize A = gold and B = air. Do you get the picture now?

But let's make another example. Let's pretend we want to produce 1 Kg of gold, how much air is needed?

m(Au) = m(air)
1000 g(Au) = 1000 g(air)
We want to find out the volume of air, but to do so we have to pass through the moles. Remembering that W(air) = 28.8 g/mol and that n = m/W

n(air) = 1000 g/28.8 g/mol = 34.72 mols

From the gas law we have
PV = nRT  --> V(air) = nRT/P = (34.72 mol)*(0.082 atm*L/Kmol)*(298 K)/(1 atm) = 848.42 L

Just out of curiosity, let's calculate what were the initial moles of gold:

n(Au) = 1000 g/197 g/mol = 5.076 mol

Let's recalculate the ratio of air:gold

R = 34.72/5.076 = 6.84

Oh what a surprise, the same number we found before. As you can see, the molar ratio is the same and the mass is constant.

What you and polymath were talking about was the molar ratio, not the mass ratio. These mistakes are typical of fresh 1st year students who haven’t hit the books, which is okay if you aren’t a chemist and aren’t interested in the subject. It is completely fine for you to not know the definition of mols just as it is fine for me to not know how an integrated circuit works. However, going around and acting as if you know what you are talking about when you are completely oblivious about the subject is just downright arrogant and stupid.

Now let put your small box mind that could not understand this simple equation but call me stupid inside your house or building at work when you challenge God to do this. and he says sure let us show this monkey man who and what God is despite what others may have to go through.. and turn air into a ton of gold..

Now..
Riddle me this, does the whole of your house contain enough volume of aire to satifify the 90 to 1 ratio of air needed? Meaning if I pull a hard vacuum on your house (30hg)could i displace 90 tons of the atoms needed for your request??? 

What if God kept your house sealed and from implosion. because truly as you missed my point before You have no way of making sure air was being converted into gold otherwise.. I in slight of hand could turn air into gold. The only way you could see or know a atomic change was happening is if you were caught up in said vacuum.. Which would ironically (as your last breath was being pulled from your lungs) be the proof you needed lest the whole 'test' be for nothing.

So quick to flash your flare you missed the whole point completely.

Did you really think that your god’s homeschooling would have magically helped you lecturing me on this? Sir, what you are doing here is gambling and it looks like this time you didn't roll a six, did you? If this is the result of your god's teachings, then you both should go hit the books again. These are the only things that will actually help you:
https://www.amazon.com/Chemistry-Chemica...0840048289

Get real.

[polymath257]

I think you need to do your division again here. One atom of gold would correspond to about 6-7 'molecules of 'air', not 30 or 90. Let's be generous and use the 7:1 ratio.

Well, shall we compute? One mole of gas at standard temperature and pressure occupies a volume of .0224 cubic meters. So a cubic meter of gas has 1/.0224 = 44.5 moles of gas, which in the case of air is 29*44.5 grams, which is about 1300 grams, or 1.3 kilograms (just under 3 pounds).

Now, what is the volume of air in a typical house? Well, If we assume a 2000 square foot floor plan and 10 ft ceilings, that makes for about 566 cubic meters, so the mass of air in such a house would be about 1.3*566, or about 750 kilograms.
So, yes, this is under a ton. It would take a largish house to have a ton of air in it. 15 foot ceilings and 2000 square feet would be plenty, though.

Most people are surprised by how much the mass of air actually is in even fairly small volumes. Ordinary rooms can have hundreds of pounds of air.

here's where your confusion is in the conversion of mols to atoms. The point of the conversation was to witness God Change air to gold on a atomic level, so rather than convert I used the atomic weight of the atoms themselves. So to make a ton of gold even at a 7:1 ratio (your numbers not mine) you need 7 tons of air, as by your numbers gold is 7 times heavier than air. 

The point is it takes a larger than a 1:1 exchange to make gold from air. you will need way way more air molecules of air to make one u of gold. so if you had a ton of air in your house you are 6 tons short of making one ton of gold using your numbers.

You guys kill me. you make yourself look stupid for the sake of trying to show me up on a math issue when you miss the whole point of the problem, and screw up your own solution.

No, this is wrong. it is the *mass* that is important here, not the atoms. You may one atom of gold for about 7 molecules of air. But the mass of the two is the same. All that is required is to rearrange the protons and neutrons and convert a few protons to neutrons. The number of electrons will be correct.

---

Which is the number that polymath found. However, he too was incorrect, as what you both were comparing here are the moles, not the masses. What you have to understand is that a mole is just a way to number things: 14 balls of 1 gram are equal to 1 ball of 14 g. A mole represents that "14". This is the example I typically give to my students, which usually is effective:

Actually, if you look at my calculation, I used the masses, not the number of moles. The point is that I calculated the mass of a cubic meter of air and used that to determine the mass of the air in a house (approximately). I never actually used the 6.84 number.

[Scientia]

@polymath257
Wasn't this in bolden your response to Drich?

Meaning if you want one ton of gold you have to convert 90 tons of oxy nitrogen and Argon.. 

Correction: 7 tons.

Because from the look of it, it seems that "someone" corrected Drich by saying "you need 7 tons of oxygen/nitrogen/argon to obtain one ton of gold" which is equal to say that 1 ton = 7 ton.

Again, if that wasn't you, then I apologize. I assumed it was you from the context (and taking into account how messy the quote function can get).

[polymath257]

@polymath257
Wasn't this in bolden your response to Drich?

Meaning if you want one ton of gold you have to convert 90 tons of oxy nitrogen and Argon.. 

Because from the look of it, it seems that "someone" corrected Drich by saying "you need 7 tons of oxygen/nitrogen/argon to obtain one ton of gold" which is equal to say that 1 ton = 7 ton.

Again, if that wasn't you, then I apologize. I assumed it was you from the context (and taking into account how messy the quote function can get).

I *think* that was Drich attempting to correct us. I did mention that it takes 6-7 *molecules* of air to form one atom of gold. But that is correct and is what makes the masses the same.

In any case, no harm, no foul.

[Jehanne]

@polymath257
Wasn't this in bolden your response to Drich?


Because from the look of it, it seems that "someone" corrected Drich by saying "you need 7 tons of oxygen/nitrogen/argon to obtain one ton of gold" which is equal to say that 1 ton = 7 ton.

Again, if that wasn't you, then I apologize. I assumed it was you from the context (and taking into account how messy the quote function can get).

I *think* that was Drich attempting to correct us. I did mention that it takes 6-7 *molecules* of air to form one atom of gold. But that is correct and is what makes the masses the same.

In any case, no harm, no foul.

I can't believe that you, a PhD mathematician, is discussing high school physics and chemistry.

[polymath257]

I *think* that was Drich attempting to correct us. I did mention that it takes 6-7 *molecules* of air to form one atom of gold. But that is correct and is what makes the masses the same.

In any case, no harm, no foul.

I can't believe that you, a PhD mathematician, is discussing high school physics and chemistry.

Why not? I can also discuss algebra and arithmetic if the discussion calls for it.

One aspect that I was attempting to point out is the fact that air has considerably more mass than many people suspect. I know I was surprised the first time I learned that a cubic meter of air has a mass of about 3 pounds.