Atheists being asked about the existence of Jesus

[Abaddon_ire]

Color is more than meets the eye, like different colors have different temperatures.

Color seems to have different temperatures. It doesn't really. This is experiential, and therefore something Goethe would investigate, not something quantifiable that Newton would measure. 

Well, you are flat out wrong. Colour temperature is measured in Kelvins.

So there you go: Newton gave gave a scientific theory which Goethe wanted to substitute with a non-theory. What is there more to say?

He didn't want to substitute a non-theory. He was collecting data for an alternative view and was too careful to say that he had a full theory yet. 

And you know this because?

BelaquaAs in nearly all your posts, you over-simplify.

Oh you're still thinking about Cathars.

No, I was thinking about your assertion that the reason America lacks a sane health insurance system is because there are a lot of Christians there. If you have some empirical evidence for this odd assertion, I'd be interested to hear it.

If only you had enough faith in Sweet Baby Jesus, you would be healed. Those of insufficient faith deserve to die anyway. Health services are irrelevant.

Don't believe me? Don't think US fundies do that up to and including killing their children so they could short cut their way to a better place. Or died of neglect because their fundie parents chose prayer instead of medicine.

[Belacqua]

Well, you are flat out wrong. Colour temperature is measured in Kelvins.

Thank you for this correction. I didn't know this, so I was wrong.

When color is measured in this way, is it at all correlated with the common perception of "warm" colors and "cool" colors? When artists talk about a "warm blue" or a "cool red," is this something that is purely emotional, or also quantifiable?

He didn't want to substitute a non-theory. He was collecting data for an alternative view and was too careful to say that he had a full theory yet. 

And you know this because?

People conclude this because of what he wrote and what he did. His work has been well documented and continues to be analyzed by modern scholars. Here are some resources:

https://theoryofcolor.org/Anzeige+und+Übersicht

https://www.cairn.info/revue-internation...ge-261.htm

https://scienceblogs.com/cortex/2006/12/07/post-7

If only you had enough faith in Sweet Baby Jesus, you would be healed. Those of insufficient faith deserve to die anyway. Health services are irrelevant.

Don't believe me? Don't think US fundies do that up to and including killing their children so they could short cut their way to a better place. Or died of neglect because their fundie parents chose prayer instead of medicine.

There are obviously stupid people out there. The polls I've seen, though, indicate that a majority of Americans support Medicare for all or some better source of accessible health insurance. Do you have any reason to think that Christianity is the reason this is blocked? It seems more likely to me that the problem is the financial influence on politics, especially in this case insurance companies.

[Fake Messiah]

No, I was thinking about your assertion that the reason America lacks a sane health insurance system is because there are a lot of Christians there. If you have some empirical evidence for this odd assertion, I'd be interested to hear it.

That's your assertion not mine. My guess is that you are referring to a convo I had with Angelina who said Christians make world better place and then mentioned healthcare in Japan and then I said that there are no Christians in Japan meaning that they already have a better ("wonderful") solution (world) than some Christian countries. That simply means that world can be (and often is) better without Christianity.

[Belacqua]

No, I was thinking about your assertion that the reason America lacks a sane health insurance system is because there are a lot of Christians there. If you have some empirical evidence for this odd assertion, I'd be interested to hear it.

That's your assertion not mine. My guess is that you are referring to a convo I had with Angelina who said Christians make world better place and then mentioned healthcare in Japan and then I said that there are no Christians in Japan meaning that they already have a better ("wonderful") solution (world) than some Christian countries. That simply means that world can be (and often is) better without Christianity.

Here's the exchange I was thinking of. Does this not assert that the reason Japan's health insurance system is better is because there are so few Christians here? 

Fake Messiah  
GOD ON SALE

Religious Views: Kiss my ASS
Posts: 3126
Threads: 197
Joined: March 30, 2015 
Reputation: 21
#955
RE: Evidence for a god. Do you have any ? 
January 4, 2019 at 5:42 pm 

"We never have the right debate in America concerning healthcare which would get to the root of the problem. Should we allow healthcare to be just another business run for profit? Japan asked this question and said no and set up not for profit corporations to administer healthcare. So now an ultrasound exam that costs many thousands of dollars in the US cost less than $100. Doctors are paid well but there are few millionaire MDs in Japan. Hospitals are not for profit and so a room there is a fraction of the cost in the US. There are NO insurance companies taking a huge chunk of healthcare dollars as profits for themselves and their stockholders and there is no multimillion dollar lobbyist being paid by healthcare dollars to influence Japans government to help them bilk the sick and injured. Because it is not for profit drug companies are forced to compete for the business and the government negotiates far cheaper prices than these same companies charge in our for profit system. Way more money is spent on prevention in Japan because in a not for profit system good health outcomes are rewarded instead of the sickly being profitable in our messed up parasitic system. As long as for profit corporations run our system healthcare will remain the largest government expenditure and the underlying problem of soaring cost will never be addressed because high costs, sick people and large profits is what our system is designed to produce"

[size=undefined]

That's because Japan has almost no Christian population to speak of.[/size]

[size=undefined]Also, have you decided to back off of your claim that Goethe wanted to mystify light and color? The links I've given you show pretty much the opposite. [/size]

[Fake Messiah]

Again, man, that was part of the larger conversation. I did not mention US. You made your own conclusion.

Also, have you decided to back off of your claim that Goethe wanted to mystify light and color? The links I've given you show pretty much the opposite.

I already explained it to you that Goethe didn't want Newton's theory but as you said "Color is something we experience, and it makes sense to look closely at what this experience tells us." that's no explanation. It's like me saying theory of Earth revolving around Sun is wrong and that the Earth doesn't revolve around the Sun but that you should experience the Sun instead - now that's giving nothing, like Goethe did.

[Belacqua]

Again, man, that was part of the larger conversation. I did not mention US. You made your own conclusion.

What you said is that the lack of Christians made Japan's good health care system possible. If you'd like to take that back now you can.

I already explained it to you that Goethe didn't want Newton's theory but as you said "Color is something we experience, and it makes sense to look closely at what this experience tells us." that's no explanation. It's like me saying theory of Earth revolving around Sun is wrong and that the Earth doesn't revolve around the Sun but that you should experience the Sun instead - now that's giving nothing, like Goethe did.

What you've said about this so far shows that you really don't know what Goethe wrote.

If you can make a case for your claim about Goethe based on his writing or on reasonable secondary sources I will read it. But I don't believe you can.

[Abaddon_ire]

Well, you are flat out wrong. Colour temperature is measured in Kelvins.

Thank you for this correction. I didn't know this, so I was wrong.

When color is measured in this way, is it at all correlated with the common perception of "warm" colors and "cool" colors? When artists talk about a "warm blue" or a "cool red," is this something that is purely emotional, or also quantifiable?

Largely, yes. Warm colours are at the red/yellow end of the spectrum while cool colours are up in the blue end.

Artists are not always totally accurate when they characterise colour in this way and it can be empirically measured.

If you want to see how good your perception actually is here is a test you can try out.

https://xritephoto.com/cool-tools

[Belacqua]

Artists are not always totally accurate when they characterise colour in this way [...] 

This is true, but in a good way!

I mean, art isn't science, obviously, and color in painting is a wonderful endless mix of chemistry, cultural precedent, and emotional association. I wouldn't wish it otherwise.

It's important to note, too, that Goethe's work with color eventually, through intermediaries, made Impressionist painting possible. Without Goethe, no Monet. Far from mystifying color, he clarified and invigorated what artists could do.

[Pat Mustard]

Sigh. I have no idea why the historical/mythical jesus debate gets so many people all bent out of shape.

Seems to me there are only 3 real possibilities with a fourth supernatural one.

A. There was a real person, Jesus. Maybe, but the evidence is thin on the ground.

B. The Jesus character is and amalgam of several disparate messianic/apocalyptic jewish prophets wandering the Levant in or around the period in question. We know there were plenty of those.

C. Entire fiction. We know people have been creating fiction for thousands of years, so entirely possible.

The socio-political aspects can, I think, be ignored since they apply equally to any scenario.

Personally, I favour a mix of B and C as most likely. A is least likely. Just my opinion.

That leads us to D. Jesus the man-god. This is, obviously, stupid on it's face as an idea. I think christians know this at some level, thus they go after option A in order to later slippery-slope their way to D. Dishonest tactic, but we know how flexible with the truth believers show themselves to be.

You forgot E: Jesusism (probably more properly Saulism) is one of the many mystery cults which were around at the time, badly and amateurishly grafted onto the various jewish holy books which had gotten a Greek translation to a) attract the Greek speaking jews and b) leech some legitimacy to cover the scam.

Given the gospel stories and the practices of the early Jesus cults, I've become increasingly happy with this interpretation.

[tackattack]

Belaqua and Fake Messiah,
I'm assuming those PM's were discussed and it's ok to post them publicly.