On the subject of Hell and Salvation

[Godscreated]

I see none who have responded to this thread have read the Bible with the intent to understand what God has said on this subject, Grandy got somewhat close but still missed the mark throwing hand grenades doesn't count in a discussion, close isn't being correct. Read the Bible and find out what it says before you condemn something, this sbject has been discussed many times over the years and the answer has been provided, I know because I'm one of those who has given the answer.

GC

Ok, so where do you think I went wrong? Is there something else my pastors and mentor neglected to tell me when I was a Christian?

The only thing I can think of that I didn't include is the "Jesus loves us so much he died for us" bit. And if that's what you're referring, I'm not fussed.

 You never mentioned how those who never hear of Jesus can be saved. I have no idea what your pastor or mentors taught you, but it is evident that you learned nothing, the Holy Spirit confirms in your heart what man presents to you, and if that had happened you would not be in the situation you're in now, whatever that may be.

GC

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At work.

They are there, just because you reject them doesn't make them disappear. Kinda' like when man once believed the sun revolved around the earth and then came to find out that it was the other way around. Truth and reality can never change if either did they wouldn't be truth or reality.

GC

Okay.

Where, precisely, is this 'There' you speak of?

Pointers? Googlemaps referance perhaps?

 You can look on Google map all your life and you will not find them. Heaven is where God is and hell is in a place that nothing can ever span the distance, it will be lost to creation forever.

GC

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Okay.

Where, precisely, is this 'There' you speak of?

Pointers? Googlemaps referance perhaps?

 You can look on Google map all your life and you will not find them. Heaven is where God is and hell is in a place that nothing can ever span the distance, it will be lost to creation forever.

GC

Hmmmm..... so we seem to have a miscommunication.

In your first post in our discourse. Did you not indicate that 'Hell' was a real place?

If so.... can you indicate as to where said, real, place is?

Now as much as I swoon to your sophistry (Actually, it's more like to 90' F heat here) keeping things 'Real' is more what I have limited time for atm.

[Godscreated]

As for Romans 10, exactly. You're not saved if the Gospel does not reach you. Hence, the need for preachers.

Romans 10 is giving an easier way to salvation for those who haven't heard the Gospel of Jesus. It's not saying that those who haven't heard can't be saved, God will judge them on their own lives. Here is the thing, trying to live a good life even according to one's own interpretation of a good life is an extremely hard thing to do. God is just and will judge all justly, if He were not just He would have never sent His Son to pay the penalty for all of us.

GC

[GrandizerII]

Ok, so where do you think I went wrong? Is there something else my pastors and mentor neglected to tell me when I was a Christian?

The only thing I can think of that I didn't include is the "Jesus loves us so much he died for us" bit. And if that's what you're referring, I'm not fussed.

 You never mentioned how those who never hear of Jesus can be saved. I have no idea what your pastor or mentors taught you, but it is evident that you learned nothing, the Holy Spirit confirms in your heart what man presents to you, and if that had happened you would not be in the situation you're in now, whatever that may be.

GC

It doesn't matter what I think now or whether I learned anything as a Christian. The fact of the matter is that many Christians who claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit answer this question as an exclusivist as opposed to an inclusivist. Without hearing the Gospel, one cannot be saved. This isn't to say that exclusivists necessarily believe God doesn't reach every single person on this planet in some way, but they do argue that access to the Gospel is nevertheless necessary, so if God never reaches out a hand to a someone born in sin, they will never have the chance to be saved ever.

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As for Romans 10, exactly. You're not saved if the Gospel does not reach you. Hence, the need for preachers.

Romans 10 is giving an easier way to salvation for those who haven't heard the Gospel of Jesus. It's not saying that those who haven't heard can't be saved, God will judge them on their own lives. Here is the thing, trying to live a good life even according to one's own interpretation of a good life is an extremely hard thing to do. God is just and will judge all justly, if He were not just He would have never sent His Son to pay the penalty for all of us.

GC

What you believe contradicts what Paul said in Romans. No one can be saved by living a good enough life. That's the point of Romans. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has yet to guide you in the right direction.

[Godscreated]

At work.

 You can look on Google map all your life and you will not find them. Heaven is where God is and hell is in a place that nothing can ever span the distance, it will be lost to creation forever.

GC

  Hmmmm..... so we seem to have a miscommunication.

In your first post in our discourse. Did you not indicate that 'Hell' was a real place?

I did.

If so.... can you indicate as to where said, real, place is?

Now as much as I swoon to your sophistry (Actually, it's more like to 90' F heat here) keeping things 'Real' is more what I have limited time for atm.

I told you God has it in a place that can not be reached nor seen by us. Read the scriptures if you think I'm lying. I've made time for you and I've stated reality to you, so it actually shouldn't take much time to understand. I am popping off right now and if that is your need so should you, this can be discussed tomorrow.

GC

[/quote]

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

I did.


I told you God has it in a place that can not be reached nor seen by us. Read the scriptures if you think I'm lying. I've made time for you and I've stated reality to you, so it actually shouldn't take much time to understand. I am popping off right now and if that is your need so should you, this can be discussed tomorrow.

GC

Ah..... the 'Misquote' function strikes again.

So.... this hell of which you speak.... Is only in a novel?

There is quite the difference between that which I call 'Real' and that which you posit as 'Real'.

If we can not interact with this thing in any meanigful way, shape or form.


Why should we care about it?

[Godscreated]

 You never mentioned how those who never hear of Jesus can be saved. I have no idea what your pastor or mentors taught you, but it is evident that you learned nothing, the Holy Spirit confirms in your heart what man presents to you, and if that had happened you would not be in the situation you're in now, whatever that may be.

GC

It doesn't matter what I think now or whether I learned anything as a Christian. The fact of the matter is that many Christians who claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit answer this question as an exclusivist as opposed to an inclusivist. Without hearing the Gospel, one cannot be saved. This isn't to say that exclusivists necessarily believe God doesn't reach every single person on this planet in some way, but they do argue that access to the Gospel is nevertheless necessary, so if God never reaches out a hand to a someone born in sin, they will never have the chance to be saved ever.

  
It doesn't matter what anyone says, the Bible speaks the truth and it says different than what you are playing around with.

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Romans 10 is giving an easier way to salvation for those who haven't heard the Gospel of Jesus. It's not saying that those who haven't heard can't be saved, God will judge them on their own lives. Here is the thing, trying to live a good life even according to one's own interpretation of a good life is an extremely hard thing to do. God is just and will judge all justly, if He were not just He would have never sent His Son to pay the penalty for all of us.

GC

What you believe contradicts what Paul said in Romans. No one can be saved by living a good enough life. That's the point of Romans. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has yet to guide you in the right direction.

  Paul says those who do not hear the gospel will become a law unto themselves and they will be judged on that by God and His judgement will be just.
Get over it God has made it possible for all to be saved through Christ even if they have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.

GC

[GrandizerII]

It doesn't matter what I think now or whether I learned anything as a Christian. The fact of the matter is that many Christians who claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit answer this question as an exclusivist as opposed to an inclusivist. Without hearing the Gospel, one cannot be saved. This isn't to say that exclusivists necessarily believe God doesn't reach every single person on this planet in some way, but they do argue that access to the Gospel is nevertheless necessary, so if God never reaches out a hand to a someone born in sin, they will never have the chance to be saved ever.

  
It doesn't matter what anyone says, the Bible speaks the truth and it says different than what you are playing around with.

Then show some examples. Don't just go by your own intuition (which you mistake for the presence of the Holy Spirit). Romans 10 (well, Romans in general) contradicts what you're saying, but perhaps there's a verse somewhere outside of Romans that will support what you say.

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What you believe contradicts what Paul said in Romans. No one can be saved by living a good enough life. That's the point of Romans. Perhaps the Holy Spirit has yet to guide you in the right direction.

  Paul says those who do not hear the gospel will become a law unto themselves and they will be judged on that by God and His judgement will be just.
Get over it God has made it possible for all to be saved through Christ even if they have never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.

GC

No, I'm not going to get over it. Paul in Romans says that no man who is not under the written law is with excuse because they have the law written in their hearts, therefore they have every reason to be condemned just like anyone else. It doesn't say that someone who has never heard of Jesus can still be saved.

[Godscreated]

At work.




Ah..... the 'Misquote' function strikes again.

So.... this hell of which you speak.... Is only in a novel?

There is quite the difference between that which I call 'Real' and that which you posit as 'Real'.

If we can not interact with this thing in any meanigful way, shape or form.


Why should we care about it?

Because it is one of the two places a person will spend eternity, and only those who have sought and accepted the truth of salvation will escape the hell we were all born to. By the way I misquoted nothing. What you call real and what is real can very well be two different things, that being what you call real may not be, hell is real and if you continue on the path you have chosen you will unfortunately find what I've said to be the truth. I'm not going to argue over the same thing post after post, it's a useless exercise, you will either reject or accept the truth and then be judged by God upon your decision.

GC

[tackattack]

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Where you went wrong, bolding by me.
" For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus "-Rom 2
That plus sin being a choice or act of volition, it requires reason and intent to sin
And because of the difficulty of that, coupled with ...
"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?" -Rom. 10
It evidences the reason why we share an easy way out of ignorance and are called to share God.

I still don't see anything I said wrong here. According to Paul, do you think having the law in one's heart can prevent one who is born in sin to fall short in God's eyes? Here's the answer given in Romans 3, which continues from the stuff Paul said in Romans 2. Bolded mine.

Romans 3:

What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
13
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”[c]
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”[d]
14
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”[e]
15
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16
ruin and misery mark their ways,
17
and the way of peace they do not know.”[f]
18
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[g]

19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

As for Romans 10, exactly. You're not saved if the Gospel does not reach you. Hence, the need for preachers.

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Your error was in that "clearly is a sociopathic way of thinking, but it's the most logically consistent answer to the question" I grant that from an exlucive-ist perspective it would seem that way. If the only way to be saved from Hell is from hearing and knowing about Jesus then the simplest course would be just to not tell anyone and hope they're judged by being good. I was outlining why, from my inclucive-ist perspective it wasn't sociopathic, but it was promoting an easier way to salvation.

Where you have it wrong again is in Romans
If "Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin"
and 2 "no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law"
and 3 "Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law ... show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

We have Law working to point out our sinful natures. You don't need religion to tell you you're wicked or to be wicked. What Romans points out mainly is that it does take religion to show you that what you consider good, isn't good compared to God. I can be perfectly nice and friendly and charitable, but be doing it all for selfish reasons, therefore not objectively good. The law (on stones or in hearts) is a tool to point out our repeated willful disobedience to our Heavenly Father. You're absolutely correct in that we can do nothing of our own to be saved. That's why the source is independent of our actions. Jesus did die for all and it's by His power we are saved. You can stand before God's judgment, on your own or covered by Jesus' sacrifice.