Trinity?

[downbeatplumb]

It's more that you'd have to suffer from psychosis to genuinely believe you're the son of God, really.

As it happens I have experience of that myself.

How were you convinced you werent?

[Minimalist]

Allow Bill Maher to explain it all to you. The discussion of the trinity begins at the 6:53 mark....although the rest of it is pretty good too.

[DeistPaladin]

I've been raised in a muslim country. So I really didn't know anything about christianity, And when I started to learn about christianity there's something I didn't get. Trinty. Is it a cultural thing or you don't get it too...

Here's my explanation of the Trinity:

A poorly conceived and glaringly unexplained plot device by which the strict monotheism of Judaism could be combined with the pagan ideas of a self-sacrificed divine intercessor.

The idea of a divine intercessor was clearly an outside idea to Judaism which could have been introduced by any number of sources, Greco-Roman, Persian and Egyptian. Where exactly to trace the idea is a matter of controversy but what can't be denied is that the concept can't be found in the OT. The Jewish god YHWH was a petulant, jealous bloodthirsty tyrant who demanded nothing less than complete and undivided adoration. He makes it clear in the first commandment and in Isaiah 43:10-12 that he delegates the role of savior and judge to no one.

Yet, this same attention-hungry, narcissistic, tantrum-throwing megalomaniac disappears into the background, letting this young upstart Jesus take center stage? In the NT, Jesus is declared the intercessor. No one comes unto the father except through him (John 14:6). He is the sacrifice who redeemed humanity (John 1:29). He was empowered to forgive sins (Luke 5:24). How could such doctrine be reconciled with monotheism?

One solution was to claim that Jesus was God, in the flesh. The concept of a god who takes human form and walks among the mortals isn't hard to understand and it existed in many religions at the time. Zeus, Isis, Mars and Odin all had their stories of taking mortal form and walking among the people. The problem is that in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) the earliest Gospel accounts, clearly depict Jesus as being separate from and inferior to YHWH.

Examples:
A booming voice from Heaven (presumably YHWH) speaks to Jesus in the second person: Luke 3:22
Jesus says his "father" is greater than him: John 14:28
Jesus claims to have been abandoned by YHWH: Matt 27:46
Jesus prays to YHWH and submits to his will, which is contrary to Jesus': Matt 26:39

So Jesus is established in both the earliest accounts to be separate from, inferior to and the intercessor with YHWH. But Jewish monotheism demands that there be NO intercessor (Is 43:10-12) and no god (or anything else) before him (Ex 20:3).

Solution: The Trinity

Essentially, Jesus is God when he's forgiving sins and being prayed to. Jesus is not God when he's praying to God or submitting to God's will. He's both, depending on the needs of the story or the theology at that time. The three beings, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are separate beings and yet all part of the same god. They're three. And they're one. Monotheism and polytheism all at the same time.

Nobody "understands" the Trinity. It's a mystery, to be taken on faith and without question, assumed to be beyond the ken of mere mortals like us.

Or maybe it's just a compromise made in committee to resolve a conundrum created by ramming two incompatible religions together. Christianity is the maladjusted bastard child of Judaism and Paganism, so the latter fits a little better.

[thesummerqueen]

"Mormon-tology"

hahahahaha

[Ashendant]

My personal interpretation was that Jesus was the corporal manifestation of god, the Holy Spirit the spiritual, and the Father the divine

[thesummerqueen]

My personal interpretation was that Jesus was the corporal manifestation of god, the Holy Spirit the spiritual, and the Father the divine

What's the difference between spiritual and divine?

[Minimalist]

Bill on Scientology for you, Summer.

[Godscreated]

I've been raised in a muslim country. So I really didn't know anything about christianity, And when I started to learn about christianity there's something I didn't get. Trinty. Is it a cultural thing or you don't get it too...

---

Here's my explanation of the Trinity:

A poorly conceived and glaringly unexplained plot device by which the strict monotheism of Judaism could be combined with the pagan ideas of a self-sacrificed divine intercessor.

The idea of a divine intercessor was clearly an outside idea to Judaism which could have been introduced by any number of sources, Greco-Roman, Persian and Egyptian. Where exactly to trace the idea is a matter of controversy but what can't be denied is that the concept can't be found in the OT. The Jewish god YHWH was a petulant, jealous bloodthirsty tyrant who demanded nothing less than complete and undivided adoration. He makes it clear in the first commandment and in Isaiah 43:10-12 that he delegates the role of savior and judge to no one.

Yet, this same attention-hungry, narcissistic, tantrum-throwing megalomaniac disappears into the background, letting this young upstart Jesus take center stage? In the NT, Jesus is declared the intercessor. No one comes unto the father except through him (John 14:6). He is the sacrifice who redeemed humanity (John 1:29). He was empowered to forgive sins (Luke 5:24). How could such doctrine be reconciled with monotheism?

One solution was to claim that Jesus was God, in the flesh. The concept of a god who takes human form and walks among the mortals isn't hard to understand and it existed in many religions at the time. Zeus, Isis, Mars and Odin all had their stories of taking mortal form and walking among the people. The problem is that in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, and Luke) the earliest Gospel accounts, clearly depict Jesus as being separate from and inferior to YHWH.

Examples:
A booming voice from Heaven (presumably YHWH) speaks to Jesus in the second person: Luke 3:22
Jesus says his "father" is greater than him: John 14:28
Jesus claims to have been abandoned by YHWH: Matt 27:46
Jesus prays to YHWH and submits to his will, which is contrary to Jesus': Matt 26:39

So Jesus is established in both the earliest accounts to be separate from, inferior to and the intercessor with YHWH. But Jewish monotheism demands that there be NO intercessor (Is 43:10-12) and no god (or anything else) before him (Ex 20:3).

Solution: The Trinity

Essentially, Jesus is God when he's forgiving sins and being prayed to. Jesus is not God when he's praying to God or submitting to God's will. He's both, depending on the needs of the story or the theology at that time. The three beings, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, are separate beings and yet all part of the same god. They're three. And they're one. Monotheism and polytheism all at the same time.

Nobody "understands" the Trinity. It's a mystery, to be taken on faith and without question, assumed to be beyond the ken of mere mortals like us.

Or maybe it's just a compromise made in committee to resolve a conundrum created by ramming two incompatible religions together. Christianity is the maladjusted bastard child of Judaism and Paganism, so the latter fits a little better.

---

You are accepting the way the Jewish leaders of Jesus day thought. These men did not want a Messiah period, that would have removed all their power, so these power hungry men denounced Christ and made it seem as what you believe, is what all Jews believed, they did a fairly good job because you and others have bought into their stories. However many Jews converted to christianity because they as free thinkers saw the truth.

YHWH is the trinity, the Father is one person, Jesus is one person and the Holy Spirit is one person, all equal, all one God (YHWY), each with different responsibilities but all of the same mind. If you want to get down to it in basic form the OT and NT do not mention the word Trinity but they both give the same view of the trinity. The only difference is that the prophecy is fulfilled thus the difference in how we look at the trinity.

The reason you believe the Jews say there is no intercessor, the OT was a prophecy of Christ and so the high priest was the intercessor between YHWH and the people, so in reality the high priest stood in place of Christ until the prophecy was fulfilled. Now there would be no need for the high priest so as I stated above these men were power hungry and wanted to do away with the true High Priest and they thought they had but instead they helped to fulfill the prophecy.

The reason you believe that Christ was lower than the Father is because Christ layed down His powers in heaven to become flesh. He came to do the will of the Father, which was set before the creation. Christ also came to set an example for believers, one part of that is to rely on the Father's powers not our own and this is exactly what Christ did. Christ told His disciples on different occasions that the miracles they saw were not of Him but from the Father. Also Jesus was not abandoned by the Father and He was not abandoned by YHWH, that would mean He, the Father and Holy Spirit would of abandoned Him and He never left Himself behind nor did He turn His back on Himself.

Please do not tell me I'm making this up it is all there in the Bible if you care to read it.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Brought up Catholic,the concept of the triune god always confused me. No one then or since has explained it to me in a way I can understand and accept.

I think DeistPalladin is on the money


Oh, the reason the Jews have not accepted Jesus as the Messiah for 2000 years is that he simply did not meet prophecy. EG MOST importantly:The Messiah is to be a warrior priest in the Davidic tradition,a political -religious leader,establishing a new Jewish kingdom on earth AND he is NOT to die. The fulfilled prophecy claimed by Christian apologists is utterly rejected to this day by Jewish scholars. Indeed, I've never actually seen any accurate fortune telling, precognition or prophecy of any kind made before the event.

[Minimalist]

Please do not tell me I'm making this up it is all there in the Bible if you care to read it.

It's the bible that's made up, you twit!