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(March 25, 2019 at 9:17 am)tackattack Wrote: If it is impossible for you to sin how can you have free will?
What a BS question. "Sin" is a mere theological fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross-dressing perverts.
It was a BS question and as wyzas pointed out it has to do with the definition. I could just as easily say "Math" is a mere mathematical fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross dressing perverts. Like it or not Abaddon, words have meanings,
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
If Hell is a physical place, there are plenty of scientists there who will have invented Air Conditioning, the internet, and lightbulbs by now. They probably have casinos, brothels, bookstores, video games, movies, and probably a lot of cool stuff we don't have yet.
If hell is not a physical place, you cannot feel pain.
The whole tone of Church teaching in regard to woman is, to the last degree, contemptuous and degrading. - Elizabeth Cady Stanton
It actually can be good to have your own personal hell. Fear is a motivator. Decide where you want to be in the next 3 years and write that story. Decide what's the worst place you could be in 3 years and write that story. Viola, your own personal hell and heaven to aim for and motivate you. Hell is a physical place, and if you've never met anyone living in hell you haven't lived very much or helped many other people.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
March 26, 2019 at 12:03 pm (This post was last modified: March 26, 2019 at 12:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Perhaps the theological narrative of heaven and hell, then, is a melodrama meant to express this basic and mundane fact of earthly existence, and not a story about two divine kingdoms in the otherland?
Are there any other narratives of faith that you think might be representative of this kind of storytelling?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
March 26, 2019 at 12:04 pm (This post was last modified: March 26, 2019 at 1:41 pm by Simon Moon.)
(March 25, 2019 at 4:14 pm)tackattack Wrote:
(March 25, 2019 at 12:15 pm)Abaddon_ire Wrote: What a BS question. "Sin" is a mere theological fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross-dressing perverts.
It was a BS question and as wyzas pointed out it has to do with the definition. I could just as easily say "Math" is a mere mathematical fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross dressing perverts. Like it or not Abaddon, words have meanings,
But math can be proved to exist. 2+2=4. Done.
Sin, not so much.
The theological definition of Sin is "an offense against god".
Please prove that:
1. a god exists
2. that said god can be offended
3. that any religious text describes the ways said god can be offended
Unless you can prove the above, I have no reason to believe sin exists.
Now, please note that I am not saying that people do not do bad things. They absolutely do, but those things are not sin.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
March 26, 2019 at 12:09 pm (This post was last modified: March 26, 2019 at 12:17 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Denotation vs connotation. It's far more important for the faithful to insist that the stories in magic books are an example of denotation.
You and I are luckily unafflicted, however, and can understand that the notion of an "offense against god" is a way of expressing some particularly egregious and consequential action. Stealing a candy bar is illegal. Skull fucking a child is "a sin against god". This connotation holds even in the absence of a literal god, of it's denotation. Secular realists make heavy and valid use of the connotative content of expressions like this. When we ask ourselves why, for example..if we are good people who know right from wrong, we still do the bad thing™ so often? Well, we have compelling reasons to do so, a consequence of our human nature, a consequence of our culture, a consequence of our circumstance.
Sin. There are egregious and consequential things that we do which are very difficult, even bordering on impossible, for us to avoid. They constrain and manipulate our will.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Perhaps the theological narrative of heaven and hell, then, is a melodrama meant to express this basic and mundane fact of earthly existence, and not a story about two divine kingdoms in the otherland?
Are there any other narratives of faith that you think might be representative of this kind of storytelling?
It could be, but because of the uniformity of the concept, it could also be our understanding of a universal truth that is intuited or it could be so ingrained in who humans are it's a defining characteristic. Either way, you have to live and act in the now, not what could be. I'll think about other narratives if you'd like to discuss them, right now I need to get back to work.
(March 26, 2019 at 12:04 pm)Simon Moon Wrote:
(March 25, 2019 at 4:14 pm)tackattack Wrote: It was a BS question and as wyzas pointed out it has to do with the definition. I could just as easily say "Math" is a mere mathematical fantasy. A method of control over the masses invented by those cross dressing perverts. Like it or not Abaddon, words have meanings,
But math can be proved to exist. 2+2+4. Done.
Sin, not so much.
The theological definition of Sin is "an offense against god".
Please prove that:
1. a god exists
2. that said god can be offended
3. that any religious text describes the ways said god can be offended
Unless you can prove the above, I have no reason to believe sin exists.
Now, please note that I am not saying that people do not do bad things. They absolutely do, but those things are not sin.
Actually the classic definition of sin is " word, deed, or desire in opposition to the eternal law of God" I'll assume you meant 2+2=4 as your proof. That's pretty circular though to use math to prove math. That's fine though because I believe mathematics are axiomatic. I agree with Gae in that denotations are more important over connotations. I don't agree though, that the egregiousness of a sin changes it's value (or weight) in relation to an objective moral authority. OK, you don't believe sin exists because I can't prove God exists to you. That's fine, and this is not the thread for that. I was simply pointing out that having a goal and a healthy fear are powerful motivators in this life to individuals. Some people live in what they perceive as hell now. To the OP, if you want to stop fearing Hell, start striving for your heaven today and live for this life. A pastor once told me "Your footsteps for for the now and your hopes are for the after, don't confuse the two while you're trying to find your way."
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
March 26, 2019 at 1:20 pm (This post was last modified: March 26, 2019 at 2:06 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 26, 2019 at 1:01 pm)tackattack Wrote:
(March 26, 2019 at 12:03 pm)Gae Bolga Wrote:
Perhaps the theological narrative of heaven and hell, then, is a melodrama meant to express this basic and mundane fact of earthly existence, and not a story about two divine kingdoms in the otherland?
Are there any other narratives of faith that you think might be representative of this kind of storytelling?
It could be, but because of the uniformity of the concept, it could also be our understanding of a universal truth that is intuited or it could be so ingrained in who humans are it's a defining characteristic.
Two ways of saying the same thing, there's no "but" there.
Quote:Either way, you have to live and act in the now, not what could be. I'll think about other narratives if you'd like to discuss them, right now I need to get back to work.
Yeah, you get back to work!
Quote: I don't agree though, that the egregiousness of a sin changes it's value (or weight) in relation to an objective moral authority.
-egregiousness of -act-.
If not putting down the toilet seat is a sin then skullfucking a kid is something else and much larger. I think that it's clear that we use the term sin to refer to something more than minor lapses of judgement and inconsequential transgression.
The greek concept of sin, from which the christian movement derived much of it's own notion, made this very explicit. Sin wasn't just missing the mark. It was a particularly offensive category of thought or action..conscious and voluntary and..in an important way, explanatory for that sinners current shitty circumstance. In this, at least, it was distinct from innate depravity, what the christians eventually came to conceive of as "original sin", though they did think that a person could do it accidentally. By, for example, not knowing that the thing x that they voluntarily and consciously did was sinful. The gods would punish them all the same.
Heaven help some wanderer who picks the wrong flower in a sacred grove, right?
We may be innately depraved such that we stare at some girls ass when she walks by on the street, but if this carries the same weight or value as skullfucking a child - then we aren't even approaching the vicinity of an objective moral appraisal of weight or desert. It may be an article of your faith that no sin is more egregious than the other, or that the egregiousness of an act doesn't indicate it as sin whereas some other is not.... but that's just another item of baggage you carry around with you as a product of a bunch of schmucks negotiating with each other on a legalism that they found useful for their own earthly ends at a point in time long past.
I suppose it's worth noting, to close these comments, that the very word in magic book that refers to this thing "sin", hamartia.. was a fatal flaw leading to the protagonists tragic end. A tad bit more serious than chewing with ones mouth open, made all the more ironic in that before this it actually was used to denote a missing of the mark. Christian theology dilutes the moral content in order to condemn even a sainted babe as a sinner of some sort or another, and so requiring absolution by the most bloodthirsty means imaginable. This spiraling off from any lucid or nominally rational account of the thing is what makes the christian notion of sin contemptibly ridiculous, not any failure to have originated from or ultimately refer to some true thing about human beings and human existence, or even the factual absence of some god. Even if there were no gods there would be sins, and if there are sins that set can;t possibly contain every negatively valued act, and even if the punishment for all sin is the same it would still be the case that the natures of the acts themselves are different - reducing the christian notions, yet again, to explicit claims of immorality and barbarism.
Objectively speaking, ofc.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
March 26, 2019 at 9:00 pm (This post was last modified: March 26, 2019 at 9:01 pm by fredd bear.)
(March 25, 2019 at 4:49 pm)Cecelia Wrote: If Hell is a physical place, there are plenty of scientists there who will have invented Air Conditioning, the internet, and lightbulbs by now. They probably have casinos, brothels, bookstores, video games, movies, and probably a lot of cool stuff we don't have yet.
If hell is not a physical place, you cannot feel pain.
Christianity teaches they bodily resurrection of everyone at some vague time in thee future. That suggests bodies and a physical hell.
That idea is problematic for me; I was taught that time and space came into existence with creation. ( like the big bang?) That time and space will cease to exist after the end of days. That makes the notion of 'eternity' meaningless.
Plus of course, as I keep saying. Christianity is based on the Torah. There is no concept of an eternal hell in Judaism. The closest they get is a kind of a watered down purgatory; the most anyone spends there is 2 years.
Eternal hell is purely a Christian invention, slowly changing from a vague idea of an afterlife, lifted from Roman beliefs . The Christians also invented the devil/satan, to go with hell.
Once again, I post clips of Bishop emeritus John Shelby Spong, the great embarrassment to the Episcopalian church:
The church invented hell..----"the church is in the guilt producing control business" (about 5 minutes.)
(March 25, 2019 at 9:17 am)tackattack Wrote: If it is impossible for you to sin how can you have free will?
God can’t violate his nature. Spoken to Moses in the 5 epic words in which He described himself: Moses asked who should I say has sent me? God answered, “Moses: I AM WHO I AM”. In other words, God is defined by his nature. God can’t do sin, accept sin, overlook sin.
The sin nature is universal in humanity. All of us have a sinful nature affects every part of us. This is the doctrine of total depravity, and it is biblical. The remedy is to partake in the divine nature offered to everyone. This new nature coexists with the old nature until physical death when the old nature becomes totally non-existent for those who accept the remedy*, those who don't will continue to have their one and only sinful nature eternally which is the referred to as the second death.
By partaking in the divine nature, one can have free will without the possibility of sin; the new creation will be sin-free.
*Everyone or anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord by embracing the life, death, and resurrection of Christ Jesus with confident trust and firm persuasion will receive salvation (new nature, partake in the divine nature).
Atheist Credo: A universe by chance that also just happened to admit the observer by chance.
