The end of the Artic Ice Sheets?

[Jehanne]

Here's the Antarctic, by the way:



It was predicted to start going in the 2030s, and so, it's running ahead of schedule.

[Alan V]

Start trying to figure out how to live without a car instead of blathering at me about how unrealistic it is to expect people to live without cars.

If you have an actual argument to make, based on the facts, please do so.

So far you seem to prefer namecalling and intimidation as methods of communication, and I can't believe you will convince anyone of anything that way. Just the reverse. You will give climate change activism a bad name.

And the reason is simple, and is what I have tried to point out. You demand attention. You make this about your own superiority instead of about the facts.

So you should be able to understand why I am concerned.

[Yonadav]

Start trying to figure out how to live without a car instead of blathering at me about how unrealistic it is to expect people to live without cars.

If you have an actual argument to make, based on the facts, please do so.  

So far you seem to prefer namecalling and intimidation as methods of communication, and I can't believe you will convince anyone of anything that way.  Just the reverse.  You will give climate change activism a bad name.

And the reason is simple, and is what I have tried to point out.  You demand attention.  You make this about your own superiority instead of about the facts.

So you should be able to understand why I am concerned.

A world in which nothing is done about man caused climate change is one in which a bunch of virtue signalers stand around jerking of about their 'green' cars.

A world in which something is actually done is one in which some posers start jerking off over their green consumption, while another group of people who have actually gotten rid of their cars ridicule them.

My approach just takes the fun out of posing.

[Jehanne]

If you have an actual argument to make, based on the facts, please do so.  

So far you seem to prefer namecalling and intimidation as methods of communication, and I can't believe you will convince anyone of anything that way.  Just the reverse.  You will give climate change activism a bad name.

And the reason is simple, and is what I have tried to point out.  You demand attention.  You make this about your own superiority instead of about the facts.

So you should be able to understand why I am concerned.

A world in which nothing is done about man caused climate change is one in which a bunch of virtue signalers stand around jerking of about their 'green' cars.

A world in which something is actually done is one in which some posers start jerking off over their green consumption, while another group of people who have actually gotten rid of their cars ridicule them.

My approach just takes the fun out of posing.

There are NO green cars, except those which we pedal with our own two feet.  Even if the US harvested every photon of light from the Sun hitting US soil, such would only meet half of the total energy consumption of the US annually.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'd love to see the source on that one.  I've seen estimates that take conservative production numbers and check that against the EIA and conclude that we'd need arrays totaling the size of california, for example..particularly when they include cars and industrial use.  Far less for electricity, ofc...far less even than the amount of land already leased out for fossil fuel production.

Solar arrays at that scale would be a disaster, but I've never seen anything that indicated that if we covered the entire continent (or at least our portion of it) in one giant array there just isn't enough solar energy.

[Yonadav]

I'd love to see the source on that one.  I've seen estimates that take conservative production numbers and check that against the EIA and conclude that we'd need arrays totaling the size of california, for example..particularly when they include cars and industrial use.  Far less for electricity, ofc...far less even than the amount of land already leased out for fossil fuel production.

Solar arrays at that scale would be a disaster, but I've never seen anything that indicated that if we covered the entire continent  (or at least our portion of it) in one giant array there just isn't enough solar energy.

I was a little skeptical of that as well, but the issue is a bit confusing. We would need about 21,000 square miles of panels to meet our current electricity needs. But that's not even close to our total energy needs. That's just for our electricity consumption. That's not enough to replace our gasoline consumption, our natural gas consumption, our jet fuel consumption, and whatnot. And I think that it also doesn't take manufacturing into account-- the energy needed to replace the coal burning factories that most of our consumer products are made with.

However, every bit of sunlight that hits the US is an awful lot of power. For example, if we could store all of the heat that is absorbed by a Walmart parking lot, then that Walmart would be able to heat itself through a large portion of the winter.

If the average American uses 82,000 kilowatts of primary energy per year, then my math says that I would need about one third of an acre of solar panels just for my own use if I used as much as the average American (I don't, not even close). So if my math is right, then we would need about 166,000 square miles of solar panels-- but we would still be consuming the products of coal power from China.

[The Grand Nudger]

FWIW, there are certain applications that solar just can't be used for at present..so IDK if they should factor into our calculations....and it's unlikely that we'll be truly free of fossil fuels (or even want to be, in truth) in this lifetime on account of that alone.

---

Might also be useful to point out that residential use and electric generation are a slightly larger portion of our problem than either transportation or industry as three categories..so that smaller amount of panels could go a long way if we could figure out a place to set them up that wasn't an unmitigated environmental disaster (or a manufacturer that wasn't hilariously dirty).   There's enough space above our roads and parking lots and much more space is currently leased out to fossil fuel production.  

Combined with passive design the amount of space (and power) required could be greatly reduced, and there are ofc improvements in ag (and susequent transportation) that could chunk another fair piece.  We could make incredible reductions even if we didn't change anything about our cars, cars being one of those things where internal combustion engines are a pretty good application of tech, all things considered.

[Cepheus Ace]

Instead of bitching about it, start working very hard on figuring out how to live without a car. Bitching is of zero value. Living without a car is one big step forward.

its not that simple. you need cars/buses to get around now.

the amount of resources that need to be mobilized is beyond what any individual is capable of. You need every bloody govt to act lest we all get screwed.

Moving to Renewable energy requires

1. Manufacturing of solar panels, wind turbines on a much larger scale than now.
2. upgrading infrastructure to be more efficient
3. construction of dams, tidal plants, nuclear reactors where necessary
4. All ground vehicles being made to run on electricity requires the above to be finished first.

we could satisfy some of our remaining oil based needs using algae to produce oil for making some plastics and stuff etc.

then a lot of mandating needs to be done, like turn off the bloody bright lights filling our wretched cities all night every night. 



this is a lot of energy being wasted right here goddamit.

and don't get me started on what else needs to be done

[Little lunch]

If you have an actual argument to make, based on the facts, please do so.  

So far you seem to prefer namecalling and intimidation as methods of communication, and I can't believe you will convince anyone of anything that way.  Just the reverse.  You will give climate change activism a bad name.

And the reason is simple, and is what I have tried to point out.  You demand attention.  You make this about your own superiority instead of about the facts.

So you should be able to understand why I am concerned.

A world in which nothing is done about man caused climate change is one in which a bunch of virtue signalers stand around jerking of about their 'green' cars.

A world in which something is actually done is one in which some posers start jerking off over their green consumption, while another group of people who have actually gotten rid of their cars ridicule them.

My approach just takes the fun out of posing.

I don't think you had an approach.
You have low social skills but a good vocabulary and intelligence.
When someone points out your bad behaviour you use those skills to try and bullshit your way out.
Of course, your not the only one who does that here, but you're becoming the most frequent.

So when did you get rid of your car?

[Yonadav]

Instead of bitching about it, start working very hard on figuring out how to live without a car. Bitching is of zero value. Living without a car is one big step forward.

its not that simple. you need cars/buses to get around now.

the amount of resources that need to be mobilized is beyond what any individual is capable of. You need every bloody govt to act lest we all get screwed.

Moving to Renewable energy requires

1. Manufacturing of solar panels, wind turbines on a much larger scale than now.
2. upgrading infrastructure to be more efficient
3. construction of dams, tidal plants, nuclear reactors where necessary
4. All ground vehicles being made to run on electricity requires the above to be finished first.

we could satisfy some of our remaining oil based needs using algae to produce oil for making some plastics and stuff etc.

then a lot of mandating needs to be done, like turn off the bloody bright lights filling our wretched cities all night every night. 



this is a lot of energy being wasted right here goddamit.

and don't get me started on what else needs to be done

I didn't say it was simple. But one giant step that American environmentalist posers can take right now, right freaking now, is to massively curb their consumerism. I always have and always will ridicule environmentalists who won't even try to figure out a way to get rid of their cars.

---

A world in which nothing is done about man caused climate change is one in which a bunch of virtue signalers stand around jerking of about their 'green' cars.

A world in which something is actually done is one in which some posers start jerking off over their green consumption, while another group of people who have actually gotten rid of their cars ridicule them.

My approach just takes the fun out of posing.

I don't think you had an approach.
You have low social skills but a good vocabulary and intelligence.
When someone points out your bad behaviour you use those skills to try and bullshit your way out.
Of course, your not the only one who does that here, but you're becoming the most frequent.

So when did you get rid of your car?

My ridicule of environmentalists who won't even consider trying very hard to figure out a way to get rid of their cars is very intentional. I consider 'green consumerism' (the idea that we don't need to make any substantial changes to our lifestyle and can consume our way out of global warming by buying things that are marketed to us as being 'green') to be more dangerous than global warming denial.

I have lived without a car for most of my adult life. I admit to having owned some cars, though. I have never owned anything larger than a subcompact. The last time I owned a car was in 2007. The last time that I owned a gas powered vehicle was in 2011, and that one was a Honda Ruckus that got a 100 miles to the gallon. I walk or ride a bicycle everywhere now. I live in a tiny town that doesn't have much in the way of public transportation. I admit that it is only so easy to do this because I am retired. But I did go through a lot of my working life without owning a car.