Ex pastor explains how Christianity is fake

[Alan V]

My views are that I am a Christian and based in my understanding of popular Christian dogma from personal experience and study that Christians are not taught to judge other people. That would be reserved for God, and we are to love even our enemies.

This point has always confused me. How can Christians judge themselves as Christians, or that others are not, if God is the only accurate judge?

And if you say real Christians are not taught to consider themselves Christians, you just eliminated 99% of them from their memberships, including yourself.

It's like saying, "We shouldn't judge others, but WE are all saved and going to Heaven!"

[The Grand Nudger]

Christian duplicity is a thing.  Its an awfully judgy religion filled with awfully judgy people.......who are told not to be judgy.

We could assert that christianity is chock full of people who fail to live up to the example of christ - but that revelation isn't going to blow any christian socks off. Still, if all falter, and none are worthy...what sense does it make to exclude a significant amount of christians on account of failing like everyone else by the same (and your own) standards? That said, hem an haw all you like, Tack, about popular christian dogma, and hell..I'm even willing to believe that you're not one of the judgy ones - but you and I both know, and understand, and see how popular christianity is practiced. They (and you) are taught to judge people. They (and you) are taught that their standard is the divine standard. That magic book also tells you to not get judgy is..very much because of this...hilarious and dissonant.

Just trying to contextualize it made you throw all those christians out the christian boat, compelled you to make personal space between them and yourself.

[tackattack]

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And I'm saying he clearly said he tried to believe and if every Christian who is 'faking it until they make it' is a fake, then you should call anyone who is who is trying to believe but isn't there yet a fake. It's okay to talk out of one side of your mouth at a time. No one is making you say that having doubt and trying to 'fake it until you make it' doesn't make you 'not a true Christian' ™ but that guy who had doubt and was 'faking it until he made it' wasn't really a Christian, even though it's clear that he tried very hard to be one. You want to have it both ways at once (for some reason), but I'm not buying what you're trying to sell, which is apparently getting to call someone who finally accepts that he's not going to make it a fake while giving those who are still trying a pass. I would guess because if wouldn't be good for soul-recruitment if you insult the people doing their best to be Christians; but once they give up they're fair game and a chance to show how those who give up will be treated.

Maybe try being decent to someone who tried and failed instead of ridiculing them...but that's not what I've come to expect from Christians, so I can't say that I'm disappointed. It's not like you have any moral standard of how to treat people (or how to gossip about them), you're clearly muddling through and struggling with figuring out what's right just like the rest of us, tackattack. It's not like Christianity has anything to offer in that regard.

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I was showing sympathy to the quoted. You can review the reel on that. It doesn't make him any worse person for being a Christian or not. It's not about the value of a person so attempt to move the goal posts as you like, it's about the label and it's definition. I believe the point you're missing is that you don't try to believe anything, you learn then accept. If you never accept then you're faking it till you make it. You can I can both learn from every elementary algebra and math mathematical book, but if you don't ever accept that 2+2=4 you don't believe in math. If you struggle with that in the quantum realm and somehow are convinced satisfactorily  2+2=5 and believe that, then you questioned and then believed. You wouldn't be a math believer until you were convinced 2+2=5. The whole time you just mouthed 2+2=4 was disingenuous and fake. I never gave those still trying a pass. I'm still trying, daily. Some days I  follow God's path and some days I follow my own. That makes me unChristian at times. Overall though I try and speak the truth at all times and overall I understand what I understand and accept it with no cognitive dissonance. Please don't continue to straw man my character, unless the discussion has disintegrated int just being dicks to each other.

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My views are that I am a Christian and based in my understanding of popular Christian dogma from personal experience and study that Christians are not taught to judge other people. That would be reserved for God, and we are to love even our enemies.

This point has always confused me.  How can Christians judge themselves as Christians, or that others are not, if God is the only accurate judge?

And if you say real Christians are not taught to consider themselves Christians, you just eliminated 99% of them from their memberships, including yourself.

It's like saying, "We shouldn't judge others, but WE are all saved and going to Heaven!"

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It's not that difficult. We're not to judge others, but we are to judge ourselves. That is the purpose of the law and the Holy Spirit, to pint out ways we are not Christlike to repent from them. I don't and didn't judge this ex-pastor. I was merely pointing out that by his words he judged himself a faker, and by definition not a Christian. Then the band wagon got riled up at a perceived Christian being judgy to a down and out guy, when I was just calling a spade a spade. I am assured in my salvation. I can only speak for me. I can hope for others that I love and care for, even some of you, but I don't know. Christians are taught to have a genuine faith and assurance of their salvation. You study and learn how to judge yourself, it's called sanctification.  It is exactly like saying WE shouldn't judge others, and I am saved. Christians didn't originally call themselves Christians, it was a term used by non-Christians to label followers of Christ. This whole last two pages really isn't about anything other than agreeing to a definition of "true Christian". I'm sorry if you remain confused, I hope I cleared some of that up for you.

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Christian duplicity is a thing.  Its an awfully judgy religion filled with awfully judgy people.......who are told not to be judgy.

We could assert that christianity is chock full of people who fail to live up to the example of christ - but that revelation isn't going to blow any christian socks off.  Still, if all falter, and none are worthy...what sense does it make to exclude a significant amount of christians on account of failing like everyone else by the same (and your own) standards?  That said, hem an haw all you like, Tack, about popular christian dogma, and hell..I'm even willing to believe that you're not one of the judgy ones - but you and I both know, and understand, and see how popular christianity is practiced.  They (and you) are taught to judge people.  They (and you) are taught that their standard is the divine standard.  That magic book also tells you to not get judgy is..very much because of this...hilarious and dissonant.

Just trying to contextualize it made you throw all those christians out the christian boat, compelled you to make personal space between them and yourself.

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Sure it's duplicitous if you're an anti-theist looking to bash religion. Maybe in a very minor minority it is taught to judge, but not that I've witnessed. The "Christian Gold standard"  isn't a metre stick against the value of a person or a cap on their potential. It is a measure of their actions. We separate people from their action every day in the secular world. Isn't the goal of law to get justice for the actions, judge the intent and treat everyone fairly with a presupposition of innocence?

I will give you that just like, politics, and law, it is filled with shitty people that like to do shitty things and judge people. I don't think you can justifiable support that it's taught, much less taught in the majority of denominational dogmas. As to the "other Christians" I never minded rocking the boat and have fallen in a few times myself. Generally I feel there are far fewer Christians than the polls capture for many numerous reasons, not the least of which is the simple definition of the word.

[The Grand Nudger]

Too committed to the True Christian claim, it seems.

[Alan V]

This point has always confused me.  How can Christians judge themselves as Christians, or that others are not, if God is the only accurate judge?

And if you say real Christians are not taught to consider themselves Christians, you just eliminated 99% of them from their memberships, including yourself.

It's like saying, "We shouldn't judge others, but WE are all saved and going to Heaven!"

It's not that difficult. We're not to judge others, but we are to judge ourselves. That is the purpose of the law and the Holy Spirit, to pint out ways we are not Christlike to repent from them. I don't and didn't judge this ex-pastor. I was merely pointing out that by his words he judged himself a faker, and by definition not a Christian. Then the band wagon got riled up at a perceived Christian being judgy to a down and out guy, when I was just calling a spade a spade. I am assured in my salvation. I can only speak for me. I can hope for others that I love and care for, even some of you, but I don't know. Christians are taught to have a genuine faith and assurance of their salvation. You study and learn how to judge yourself, it's called sanctification.  It is exactly like saying WE shouldn't judge others, and I am saved. Christians didn't originally call themselves Christians, it was a term used by non-Christians to label followers of Christ. This whole last two pages really isn't about anything other than agreeing to a definition of "true Christian". I'm sorry if you remain confused, I hope I cleared some of that up for you.

"It's not that difficult," as you say, only if you interpret the original as you do.

The original Matthew 7 says this: "[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged. [2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

I take this to mean, "don't judge others, your community, or yourself." The reason for this was implied in the second verse: we are not capable of doing so, and if we do so we set ourselves up for future failures. People can be good or bad over time, and most certainly can change. Every judgment is jumping to a conclusion, including about our own righteousness. That is as much a trap for us as thinking we or others are awful. So not judging is a way of being on guard. Many people who believe they are already saved are not on guard.

What may confuse this issue is that the saying which follows it in the Bible is about finding fault with another, the speck in another's eye. But to me this explores only one aspect of the first idea.

[Mister Agenda]

One more time, tackattack: I'm fine with calling people who are faking it until they make it fake Christians. I think that's a course of action that will discourage new converts and I think that, in the grand scheme of things, Christianity leans towards toxicity, so we're all better off if we mock the ones who struggle. You get to restrict Christianity to True Christians Only ™ and I think that would be great. I'm not arguing with you about how beliefs are formed, I agree. But did you know that sincerely trying to convince yourself that something is true often leads to belief that it's true? It would be grand to nip that sort of thinking in the bud, and mockery is an effective tool for that. Win!

[tackattack]

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It's not that difficult. We're not to judge others, but we are to judge ourselves. That is the purpose of the law and the Holy Spirit, to pint out ways we are not Christlike to repent from them. I don't and didn't judge this ex-pastor. I was merely pointing out that by his words he judged himself a faker, and by definition not a Christian. Then the band wagon got riled up at a perceived Christian being judgy to a down and out guy, when I was just calling a spade a spade. I am assured in my salvation. I can only speak for me. I can hope for others that I love and care for, even some of you, but I don't know. Christians are taught to have a genuine faith and assurance of their salvation. You study and learn how to judge yourself, it's called sanctification.  It is exactly like saying WE shouldn't judge others, and I am saved. Christians didn't originally call themselves Christians, it was a term used by non-Christians to label followers of Christ. This whole last two pages really isn't about anything other than agreeing to a definition of "true Christian". I'm sorry if you remain confused, I hope I cleared some of that up for you.

"It's not that difficult," as you say, only if you interpret the original as you do.

The original Matthew 7 says this: "[1] Judge not, that ye be not judged.  [2] For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

I take this to mean, "don't judge others, your community, or yourself."  The reason for this was implied in the second verse: we are not capable of doing so, and if we do so we set ourselves up for future failures.  People can be good or bad over time, and most certainly can change.  Every judgment is jumping to a conclusion, including about our own righteousness.  That is as much a trap for us as thinking we or others are awful.  So not judging is a way of being on guard.  Many people who believe they are already saved are not on guard.

What may confuse this issue is that the saying which follows it in the Bible is about finding fault with another, the speck in another's eye.  But to me this explores only one aspect of the first idea.

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If you read in context, what makes you differentiate the 2 sentences as being about different things? Als, it doesn't say don't judge. It says don't judge or watch out for what's coming. Continue reading... "‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye."
It's a warning that the tongue is a 2 edged sword and judging others heaps judgement back onto yourself. It is a warning on setting your house straight and being careful with your words before helping someone else. That's what it can be, helping others. There is a difference between discernment and judgement. The latter holds a denotation of condemnation that lacks in the former. You can't say the first sentence has a scope of self, other and community without reading scope into it and ignoring other verses.

Couple that with a few other verses like
bolding by me-

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Lamentations 3:40
Let us examine and probe our ways, And let us return to the LORD.

1 Corinthians 11:27-31
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?

Galatians 6:4
But each one must examine his own work, and then he will have reason for boasting in regard to himself alone, and not in regard to another.

1 John 3:19-21
We will know by this that we are of the truth, and will assure our heart before Him in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;

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People can certainly be good or bad over time, and most certainly can change. I also agree that
Every judgment is not jumping to a conclusion. Every judgement contains a valuation and worth premise. Every discernment just contains a valuation. Judges in courts can be wrong, and that's the trap we don't want to fall into by judging others, especially in the scope of an eternal soul. Hope that is a little clearer.

One more time, tackattack: I'm fine with calling people who are faking it until they make it fake Christians. I think that's a course of action that will discourage new converts and I think that, in the grand scheme of things, Christianity leans towards toxicity, so we're all better off if we mock the ones who struggle. You get to restrict Christianity to True Christians Only ™ and I think that would be great. I'm not arguing with you about how beliefs are formed, I agree. But did you know that sincerely trying to convince yourself that something is true often leads to belief that it's true? It would be grand to nip that sort of thinking in the bud, and mockery is an effective tool for that. Win!

Perhaps the T Swift call out was a bit distasteful. I don't think I would have done that to the person's face so I'll consider that mockery and bad on me. I intended it as the same kind of vitriolic humor prevalent here. Perhaps it's a bad influence? Empathy and understanding towards those struggling would be more appropriate.

Torture, systematic brainwashing, and chemically induced altered states of mind are proven ways to convince any of us to believe things we previously knew were untrue. The problem with self-deception is the sincerity. We can talk positive affirmations, positive expectancy, static paradox and the differences between rationalization and self-deception if you like. I like Triver's take on irrationality and emotionalism being a key to potential self deception in the subconscious. Nothing of what I was talking about was a plan for a course of action.

[The Grand Nudger]

Magic book says alot of things, Tack.

[Alan V]

Hope that is a little clearer.

Yeah, I get it. I'm not allowed to have a different interpretation of scripture because I'm an atheist, even though I was raised a Christian.

[tackattack]

@Alan V - You're entitled to your interpretation. If you genuinely plainly read

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“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

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as a prohibition against all forms of judgement (including introspection) and ignore other verses that support setting yourself straight, our exegesis is just different. I don't see "don't judge others, your community, or yourself." or that "we are not capable of doing so" or that we are not allowed to in the verse.