[Serious] Comfort in Faith at Death

[The Grand Nudger]

I know for a fact that you do, your comments over the years and even in thread demonstrate as much. They’re just highly compartmentalized and working from a flawed assumption of Antitheism.

What you don’t oppose is whatever comfort a person might find in the notion of an afterlife. Well, neither do antitheists.

I also think that the notion of an afterlife is in the set of comforting beliefs, in a wide variety of firms not at all limited to the contemporary Christian afterlife.

[Shell B]

Wow, you're telling me I oppose theism when I don't? You know that not liking the Catholic Church or the Bible's teaching isn't antitheism, right? I actually like Buddhism, and I bet I could find a few more I don't mind. Your problem is that you think the Abrahamic religions are it and the rest of us should feel that way too. Well, I don't, so cut the shit.

I don't oppose theism because it offers that comfort, and it can also be very helpful to people in other ways. I don't and have never opposed theism. The fact that you're pulling the same bullshit theists pull on me makes me think you're no better than them. If all antitheists are this pushy, I think I'll have to take up with the folks who oppose you.

[The Grand Nudger]

It’s precisely because I think this that I can point to the exploitative nature of theisms relationship with that other belief and the need and value of comfort when we face our own mortality as another argument for antitheism.

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Buddhism is not theism.

[tackattack]

comfort is comfort, especially at the end of a life. If anti-theism has a problem with theistic flavored comfort, due to it's long term impact on the individual or societal impact that's absolute crap because this is at the end of an individual's life. It has limited to no impact on the short remaining life of the dying and little if no societal impact outside of euthanasia laws. I see every third church in this town has a grief counseling meeting (some more secular and some less). I see pastor, parishioners, staff and church members doing tons of things (meals, visits, driving, etc) for widows and families suffering. How is this top down community of compassionate support for those grieving a bad thing?

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The worst effects of theism are very rational products of the belief.

The simple fact that you reference “improved theism” demonstrates that you understand exactly what antitheists are referring to, and agree. You’d like to see less if that, but imagine that improvement -for theism- runs along your own ideological grounds. It doesnt. The forms of theism you see today -are- the improved ones. They wiped the floor with the others.

It was nearly inevitable, since social movements are effected by selective pressures. The ability to exploit human fear and relationships is a competitive advantage for the spread of the movement.

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Since the Church has recognized that exploiting fears is a bad way to motivate and is attempting different methods, I would recon that this is the improved theism you're talking about. I agree that railing against a theistic system by use of the same fears of "you can't do this or you'll get sued" or "you must include me because I'm a privileged minority", is slightly better in that sued is temporary and burning in Hell is permanent. How is it not the same fear mongering?

[The Grand Nudger]

It’s precisely because I think this that I can point to the exploitative nature of theisms relationship with that other belief and the need and value of comfort when we face our own mortality as another argument for antitheism.

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Buddhism is not theism. Theres no shortage of antitheists who are super sweet on Buddhism. Hell, some antitheists make exceptions for variants of theism in their blind spots. Hitchens famously used Jainism as a positive example.

[Shell B]

Buddhism is not theism.

Most isn't.

https://www.shambhala.com/snowlion_artic...ntheistic/

[The Grand Nudger]

Comfort is comfort, sure, but the belief in an afterlife is not theism and comfort is not theism. Antitheists are opposed to the manner in which theism exploits comfort ( and other beliefs).

[Shell B]

To assert that I'm opposed to theism, and all of its flavors, simply because you've seen me oppose facets of specific churches and teachings is sheer hubris. Like theists, you want to believe that I'm 'just like you,' but I haven't realized it yet. You are enlightened, and I am yet ignorant of my very own feelings. You assume too much, and want too much to spread your belief. All it will serve to do is push people away. Good luck with that.

[Shell B]

Belief in the afterlife is part of theism. It's not the whole thing, but you're splitting hairs. At least you're responding in coherent sentences instead of novellas now.

[The Grand Nudger]

Let’s make up an afterlife. When you die, you get cookies and ice cream.

Cool.

Now let’s add theism. But only if your on this dude named gods list, which he sent to us.

Not so cool anymore.

If you’re cool with the former and oppose the latter....your not in opposition to cookies and ice cream in the sky, your in opposition the the theistic addendum to cookies and ice cream in the sky.

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Belief in an afterlife is emphatically not part of the belief in a personal and intervening god. It’s it’s very own thing.

We could use atheism and antitheism to express this distinction as well. I’m not an antitheist because I’m an atheist, and I’m not an atheist because I’m an antitheist...even though these things are both present as a part of me. They aren’t the same things or even parts of each other, they simply exist together in my mind, and are often found together in atheist and antitheist communities, lol.

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We could even use a variant of theism for comparison. Witnesses don’t believe in the contemporary Christian afterlife anymore than I do. They don’t believe in s heaven where you get to chill with your loved ones. They believe that some people on a dude named gods list will wake up on earth after s long dirtnap. Part of the reason they’re so nutty about cutting ties with people who leave their faith is that they want to strongly dissuade their loved ones from not getting the golden ticket. That’s a rational and well intentioned reason to do a shitty thing that flies directly from the theistic component of their beliefs.