Discrimination, oppression, and the War on Christianity

[Cecelia]

For once I agree with Drich. It's discrimination to force churches to follow secular laws. As a Satanist, it should be my Satan-given right to sacrifice Christians on an altar to the dark lord, followed by an orgy bathed in the blood of my enemies. But the law says I can't, and that's just not right.

[The Valkyrie]

You know what real discrimination is?

I can’t turn away a patient or refuse to treat someone.

I’m not allowed to treat patients using a rusty knife and kitchen tongs!

And most importantly, unlike churches, I still have to pay taxes.

[Cod]

Leave them alone to warp the minds of the young and the vulnerable, after all it's their right. They're continuing with this for the good of humanity, just think of all the love and the good that Christianity has spread.

Here is an evidence based list of the positives:

1.





So there you have it.

Just because you hate God, that doesn't give you the right to oppress them, why do you care what they believe? Haven't you got anything better to do?

[tackattack]

---

OK I can accept that I was applying unwanted pressure to the boy to conform by starting a ritual that his parent wanted no part for him. I still don't see it as discrimination as I defined. The difference, IMO if you look at the definition I stated was the intent. I wasn't intending to single him out, the intention was actually the opposite. I didn't intend for him to feel unwelcome, because people don't wear atheists signs on their foreheads. A few simple words, after the game, with what you believe and what you don't want for your child would have been all it took. I don't have any idea from experience what it's like to have to either pray or come out. Why do you feel the need to do something you don't want to do to fit into a group? Why do you feel the need to hide who you are and what you believe?

No, I’m sure you didn’t have any intent to discriminate against anyone. I just think Christians could do a little more considering of that type of thing. I agree that the mother could have come to you in private and discussed it with you and I do personally think that’s always the best first step. But I can understand why some people skip it. Usually if you don’t make a big stink about something nothing will be done.

As for last 2 questions, if you consider a you g child I think it’s pretty obvious why they would want to fit in and not be ostracized. Kids want to fit in. They don’t want anyone to think they’re weird.
Myself personally, I wouldn’t care at all to fit into a group that I don’t even want to belong to. I do care to hide my atheism from most people for the same reason I hide my sexuality. I don’t want to be treated badly because of negative views that come with being an atheist. A lot of people in my work environment and my community are idiots. They think atheism means I worship the devil and I hate god and I’m an evil person who sacrifices goats in my spare time for my own malicious purposes. And I don’t want to deal with that. I think that just like my sexuality, my atheism should be something that I get to choose when/if to come out about and to whom.

---

On point 1 Losty - So what I gather is that I, from my place of blind privilege, am expected to infer that people could be offended by what I do. I am also expected to read minds because people hide that "being different" shit so they can seem to fit in better? How about this for a utopian thought of the day: Everyone stop pretending to be shit you're not just to fit in and find a group that accepts you for all of you.

I could have had a question on the registration form that asked his religious affiliation, but that's a whole different SJW cause. If I can't ask what your beliefs are so as not to offend you and you refuse to tell people so you're not ostracized, what should I do exactly. If I want to know your belief so I can be more inclusive and not offend you or treat your different than you deserve, and I encourage an open dialogue with no judgment, I can't see doing much more than that. If you want to assume that asking "hey, do you go to church" will be followed by a pressured sales pitch. If you want to assume that I'm asking so that I can be hurtful and discriminatory towards you. If you want always go balls to the wall drama queen to solve your problems, I have nothing for you. I want rational and non-judgemental discussion. I want fair and equal treatment. I want everyone to feel included. You can't have those things with people on both sides behaving badly. One side can be judgmental, bigoted and push their beliefs and lives on others. The other side can blow up every discussion, hide the truth, and demonize well intentioned people.

Bottom line for point 1- Totalitarians believe that everyone should see what they see and do what they do. That's irrational and unproductive. It's also irrational and unproductive to want a discourse but to assume talking is futile and make a big stink over everything while hiding those very same parts of yourself you want discourse about. Please outline a way out this.


On the other 2 points, just to play devil's advocate, you said "hide my sexuality. I don’t want to be treated badly because of negative views that come with being an atheist." So if you are treated badly unintentionally because someone assumes your sexuality, because you're obfuscating it intentionally, who's fault is that? It's not really like straight people go into gay meetings looking for someone to intentionally mistreat, normally.

What I'm trying to point out is the primacy of the responsibility lies on the action and the intent. Intentional discrimination, oppression, bigotry all of those things are very bad and should be hate crimes. Blindly discovering someone is trans after some locker room jokes is cause for a change in attitude, but not punishment, IMO.

[Losty]

Are you expected to infer that people could be offended by what you do? Umm...yes, to an extent.

What kind of crap is this “everyone stop pretending and just find a group that accepts you” what? You realize that makes no sense right? Do you expect people to choose not to be a part of society just because they’re different? Go hang out with the 3 other atheists in your town. My son is not allowed to play football because everyone else on the team is a Christian and he’s not? Your solution for him is to go hang out with his own kind? What?

We live in a society. It may not be obvious to you, but there are people who keep their personal business personal in order to function better within that society. It’s not pretending to be something they’re not. Choosing not to disclose that I’m not a Christian is not the same thing as pretending to be a Christian. If you make assumptions, that’s on you not me.
If you’re not in church and it’s not a religious activity, there’s no reason for you to be doing a group prayer anyway, say your own prayer and if anyone else thinks praying is something they’d like to do, they can say their own prayer. On their own. Isn’t there a bible verse that tells you to pray in private anyway?

Telling people who are different from you to go find their own group that accepts them for who they are...that is the definition of discrimination. I’m not saying it’s criminal or should be punished, but it’s bigotry and it’s wrong.

As for your second point, if someone made a “locker room joke” about trans people in my business, they would be immediately fired, and I’m not even trans. Not knowing someone is trans is not an excuse to make bigoted jokes about trans people. You shouldn’t be making those jokes even if no one around is trans.

How could I be treated badly unintentionally because I don’t immediately come out to every person as soon as I meet them? Could you give an example?
Because I feel like what you’re saying is if someone assumes I’m straight and makes a bigoted joke about lgtbq+ people, then it would be my fault for not disclosing my sexuality to that person.
If that’s the case, I have to disagree. People shouldn’t be assholes, even if they think no one else would be offended. I’m not Jewish, but I would be offended about bigotry towards Jews, I’m not black but I would be offended if someone started throwing around the n-word.

[Mister Agenda]

It's perfectly fine for a church to talk politics from the pulpit as long as they're incorporated as a 501©4 instead of a 501©3, just like any other nonprofit that engages in partisan politics. The deal is that a nonprofit doesn't have to pay taxes if it stays out of politics. If it's so important to preach politics from the pulpit, it should be worth it to pay a little more in taxes to do it legally.

[LadyForCamus]

Sorry, Tack. That many people in this country share one particular belief about a thing is no one’s business but theirs. That’s why you guys have churches, and faith retreats, and online Christian communities where you can gather and worship. If you want to take a moment to say a prayer before your game (don’t even get me started on praying for sporting events) you’re free to do so in this country.  But, what right do you have involving the rest of the team? You hold a belief. Great for you. Your reasons for holding that belief are your own business, and whether those reasons are sound or not is something that you, alone, are responsible for. What you don’t have the right to do is: 1. assume other people around you hold that same belief, especially if you’re intellectually honest enough to admit it’s a faith-based belief, and 2. assume that actively trying to involve others who might not share your belief in that belief doesn’t/shouldn’t make them feel uncomfortable. If I believed in the Pink Unicorn Faloola, creator of all things, and invited all the kids at my son’s field day celebration to join me in prayer to Her, wouldn’t you think that’s tad inappropriate? You guys seem to think that the sheer number of you somehow makes your belief more reasonable and more acceptable to the rest of us. It doesn’t. Just ask a Muslim.

[arewethereyet]

Tack,
Assuming that everyone else shares your belief and is okay with being led in a Christian prayer is not reasonable. Unless you are at a church-sponsored event then you need to take into account that it's not appropriate to push your beliefs on others - especially kids who may not know what to do to remove themselves from the situation. Kids are usually going to look to the adults in charge and think that they should be doing what they are being told to do even if it's confusing to them. Trying to indoctrinate other people's kids isn't your job or your right. You presume that you don't even have to approach the issue first. You are of the mind that you are correct in leading a prayer because you think what you believe is most important. You are the one thinking you have the right. You are the one deciding that others should just shut up and do what you want even when it goes against their family, or personal, beliefs.

You aren't being persecuted. You are acting like you are the ultimate authority and if other people don't care for it then they are the ones who are treating you badly.

I swear, a lot. It's sort of a family thing. But I don't swear around people I don't know who may be made to feel uncomfortable. I also don't use language that is considered blasphemous around people when I don't know how they will react. My right to my free speech ends if I am making others hurt or uncomfortable.

I think it's important to know your audience and not to take for granted that you are in the right. Maybe you are in your world but everyone doesn't live there.

[Drich]

We can not discuss politics in the church. The government will shut down any church that talks politics from the pulpit.

The church can not mandate anything not permissible by the law of the land.

The church can not self govern it's own resources. meaning if the church organization holds property, the church can not decide for it self what it can and can not do with this property. for instance our church down town bough 6 ajecent lots for parking 1 day aweek. these lots all are connected to the church one way r another and are vacant, but the local government will not allow for parking as they changed the zoning to not allow parking where for 35 years parking is allowed. now the membership suffers because they are forced to park on the street and sometimes walk miles.

The church can not refuse people if they deem them unfit for a program. 
example we have a benevolence program that gives out between 25 and 100 lbs of food. the condition you must be a church going member. the government now mandates we must give away food to any who asks despite affiliation.

The church can not tell groups no. a group of homosexuals wanted to be married in our historic church down town, and the city demanded equal use of this space. (because of tax subsidies) 

there is a face book post that explains all of this and more if you want me to post it.

All from a congress who is told it can not make any laws that govern the church.

You realize that most of this stuff is not discrimination, but rather a lack of rights because the church doesn’t pay ta

And you realize that the church is not the only organization in the USA that does not pay taxes? Any and all 501-503c organizations do not pay tax, and none are so heavily regulated. in fact a presidential campaign can be considered a non taxable organization and yet have one of these restrictions placed on it. The girl scouts do not have these restrictions. yet the church does... that is discrimination.

---

You know what real discrimination is?

I can’t turn away a patient or refuse to treat someone.

I’m not allowed to treat patients using a rusty knife and kitchen tongs!

And most importantly, unlike churches, I still have to pay taxes.

are you allow to have a political opinion?

Are you forced to share your work space with people seeking to taint your clean environment?

Are you forced to abandon your parking lot connected to your building and be made to walk 1 to 2 miles (nearest authorized parking facility)

Are you forced to buy a bus and transport the old and infirm to and from this parking lot?

Are you forced to give out in literal tons of food in lieu of taxes to people looking to take advantage and abuse the program that refuse to meet any of the qualifications you may have to justify funding this program??

No? to me it seems you are bitching about doing what your job requires. Things you agreed to do things that one must take an oath to to even be considered for your job.

Everything I mentioned is added on well after the fact. These rules are meant to starve out and shut the church down. 

what business that requires a shop or store visit could operate without parking? If the church can not be allowed suitable parking then the membership dwindles, donations falter and all of the extra expenses mandated in an unfair way make the church default in it's new requirements resulting moving the congregation.

When is the last time you where forced to move via code enforcement violations?

question are you not smart enough to make an honest comparison between the church I mention and your own situation or are you banking on the fact that the people reading your post are not smart enough to see past you ham fisted attempt at belittling this situation?

[Mister Agenda]

I've submitted the 501©3 paperwork for a religious organization and a non-religious non-profit. The religious one was a breeze compared to the other, where I had to submit all kinds of additional documents to prove it was nonprofit and not involved in politics.