Crusaders and Jihadists: 2 faces of the same coin

[ReptilianPeon]

I think a much better framing is: (many/some) Christians and (many of) the followers of Muhammad have a lot in common, more than they'd like to acknowledge. Both religions have used religion as a justification for war. Can their deities not speak for themselves? Surely this "Allah" character can do a much better job of destroying civilizations than a rag-tag bunch of Jihadists, if that is what is needed? I am sure the deities could do a fine job of speaking for themselves, yet the silence is not taken as a hint for many.

[WinterHold]

While I will happily grant that jihadists and crusaders don't have enough difference between them to show daylight, your post is attempting to equate soldiers with terrorists, which is hardly the same the thing.  I think the comparison pretty much fails because professional soldiering doesn't have as it's chief tactic the targeting of civilians to achieve political ends (at least, not avowedly).  Civilians are killed in every war, it's simply not avoidable.  But the deaths of these civilians - I believe the nice, sanitized phrase is 'collateral damage' - isn't the object of the operation.

Furthermore, the Western military operations in the Middle East can't be called 'a crusade' by any sensible person, as there isn't a religious objective.  The aims are more cynical and economic than anything else.

Boru

American soldiers as I understand are from the whole country and whole ethnic/religious backgrounds; many are in the army for the cash -considering it a job like any-. but others -many too- are evangelicals with bad ideas ranging from racism to extremism. I can be more accurate and give example by the loyal crowd around Trump and many political heads in the U.S's republican & oligarch institution.

These voters that made him win can act as a very decent fuel for a war with Iran.
Put Israel in the middle and there you go: a full-scale Jewish/Christian/Islamic conflict.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

While I will happily grant that jihadists and crusaders don't have enough difference between them to show daylight, your post is attempting to equate soldiers with terrorists, which is hardly the same the thing.  I think the comparison pretty much fails because professional soldiering doesn't have as it's chief tactic the targeting of civilians to achieve political ends (at least, not avowedly).  Civilians are killed in every war, it's simply not avoidable.  But the deaths of these civilians - I believe the nice, sanitized phrase is 'collateral damage' - isn't the object of the operation.

Furthermore, the Western military operations in the Middle East can't be called 'a crusade' by any sensible person, as there isn't a religious objective.  The aims are more cynical and economic than anything else.

Boru

American soldiers as I understand are from the whole country and whole ethnic/religious backgrounds; many are in the army for the cash -considering it a job like any-. but others -many too- are evangelicals with bad ideas ranging from racism to extremism. I can be more accurate and give example by the loyal crowd around Trump and many political heads in the U.S's republican & oligarch institution.

These voters that made him win can act as a very decent fuel for a war with Iran.
Put Israel in the middle and there you go: a full-scale Jewish/Christian/Islamic conflict.

So you are blanket condemning ALL USian soldiers on the actions of some.  How is that any different from the ignorant, bigoted Western claim, 'All Muslims are terrorists'?

Boru

[WinterHold]

Atlass, this is bullshit.

This stupidly assumes everyone who joins the U.S. Military is a Christian, and that is not the case. There is no religious oath to serve in our Marines, Air Force, Navy or Army. If you want to claim that most are Christians that still would not make all of them Conservative Christians, which would be more tempted to be the opposite of your Islamic conservatives. 

I wouldn't trust our Christian conservatives to have a monopoly on our government and I am glad they do not, because they'd love to be a Christian version of Saudi Arabia.

And if you think I am happy with every war we have been in since WW2 you'd be wrong. I hate all war mongers, I hate our GOP because they shoot first and ask questions later. But unlike Saudi Arabia, when Americans don't like our leadership, we have the opportunity to change it. The same cannot be said for Saudi Arabia. I am NOT happy that Trump sucks your Prince's dick, especially after Trump was told he had a reporter chopped to bits.

I most certainly hate that humans fight each other, and I hate war, but this is not a case of the two sides being the same.

Currently the Islamic side of the planet is still stuck in oppressive theocracy. The west is still by comparison, still far more open and free at this point in history. That does not mean I like everything America does though. It also does not mean I like everything Israel does.  It merely means we are still far more open than that side of the planet.

I'm not generalizing on all American soldiers; Brian, but I'm treating the army for what it is: a unified entity. The soldier's personal motives would not matter a lot when his unit is ordered to bomb a bridge or a home somewhere. If the leadership is evangelical and following an evangelical agenda, then the army automatically is; too.

A number of soldiers might not be in it for religious reasons, but that is on both sides: even ISIS has fighters who are in it for revenge for losing family or friends in war.

The American army's leadership as far as I know did show a lot of activity supporting zionism and for a reason we very well know: the return of Jesus Christ to Jerusalem.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019...ce-support

In his speech at the American University in Cairo, Pompeo said that in his state department office: “I keep a Bible open on my desk to remind me of God and his word, and the truth.”

The secretary of state’s primary message in Cairo was that the US was ready once more to embrace conservative Middle Eastern regimes, no matter how repressive, if they made common cause against Iran.

These are the official words from the American regime of today. 
Was he talking about "God" or "Jesus" ?

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Anyone who doesn't advocate and/or practice pacifism is (at some level) a violent terrorist. Not that pacifism is a workable or ironclad solution to violence or anything. But, to me, it's the only thing that ultimately isn't violent terrorism.

Pacifism can be practiced with a race different than humans.

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I think a much better framing is: (many/some) Christians and (many of) the followers of Muhammad have a lot in common, more than they'd like to acknowledge. Both religions have used religion as a justification for war. Can their deities not speak for themselves? Surely this "Allah" character can do a much better job of destroying civilizations than a rag-tag bunch of Jihadists, if that is what is needed? I am sure the deities could do a fine job of speaking for themselves, yet the silence is not taken as a hint for many.

But where are Muslims now? where are the Muslim armies slaughtering everybody? as far as I know; it is Christians and secular governments that destroyed the world through world wars and the creation and deployment of nuclear bombs; not Muslims.

It is Christians who invaded whole continents and annihilated a whole race out of existence and destroyed it's civilization for good like moth; not Muslims.

Do you compare the Christian invasion of America to the Muslim invasion of Egypt?
Do you compare the Christian inquisitions to the Muslim expansions?

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American soldiers as I understand are from the whole country and whole ethnic/religious backgrounds; many are in the army for the cash -considering it a job like any-. but others -many too- are evangelicals with bad ideas ranging from racism to extremism. I can be more accurate and give example by the loyal crowd around Trump and many political heads in the U.S's republican & oligarch institution.

These voters that made him win can act as a very decent fuel for a war with Iran.
Put Israel in the middle and there you go: a full-scale Jewish/Christian/Islamic conflict.

So you are blanket condemning ALL USian soldiers on the actions of some.  How is that any different from the ignorant, bigoted Western claim, 'All Muslims are terrorists'?

Boru

If they are in the army by their own free will, then they agree to the agenda of the army and the cause it fights for. Any interest the leadership of the army has is carried out by these soldiers.
They move as a single unit, all chose to be part of the unit despite knowing its crimes.

That seems like a debt on every soldier's back, compare this to a mafia gang.

[ReptilianPeon]

But where are Muslims now? where are the Muslim armies slaughtering everybody? as far as I know; it is Christians and secular governments that destroyed the world through world wars and the creation and deployment of nuclear bombs; not Muslims.

It is Christians who invaded whole continents and annihilated a whole race out of existence and destroyed it's civilization for good like moth; not Muslims.

Do you compare the Christian invasion of America to the Muslim invasion of Egypt?
Do you compare the Christian inquisitions to the Muslim expansions?

Atlas! Atlas! A Muslim army known as the Saudis are slaughtering everyone in the Yemen, along with their partners from another Muslim army - the U.A.E. ...

The Taliban are slaughtering innocent Afghans on the daily basis.

DAESH slaughtered many people of all backgrounds.


Or do we not count Muslim VS Muslim violence? But you know, Taliban and DAESH hates anyone and everyone who dares to have slightly different views to them. Pakistan tolerates the Taliban because they know Afghanistan would be a great friend and ally to India.

Also, I'm pretty sure it was a "European/Caucasian invasion of the Americas", not a Christian one. I will remind you that the USA was not founded on Christian principles, and, for example, George Washington was a Deist (as far as I know). I hope that is clear enough.

[WinterHold]

Atlas! Atlas! A Muslim army known as the Saudis are slaughtering everyone in the Yemen, along with their partners from another Muslim army - the U.A.E. ...

The Taliban are slaughtering innocent Afghans on the daily basis.

DAESH slaughtered many people of all backgrounds.


Or do we not count Muslim VS Muslim violence? But you know, Taliban and DAESH hates anyone and everyone who dares to have slightly different views to them. Pakistan tolerates the Taliban because they know Afghanistan would be a great friend and ally to India.

Also, I'm pretty sure it was a "European/Caucasian invasion of the Americas", not a Christian one. I will remind you that the USA was not founded on Christian principles, and, for example, George Washington was a Deist (as far as I know). I hope that is clear enough.

Saudi Arabia and the UAE are backed officially by the U.S and most western countries, they are vessels for the U.S and ruled by spoiled royals, who are playing with the trillions they get from being servants of the U.S, and the result is stuff like the war in "Yemen".

Still milking the ISIS scarecrow is not right. This militia is a conclusion of the Middle East's inhumane living conditions, wars and economical theft by western powers and their Arab vessels.

[ReptilianPeon]

Okay then, how about Omar al-Bashir's war crimes in the Darfour (and probably elsewhere)? Are you going to claim he is a Western puppet too? The Islamic Republic of Sudan has killed loads and loads of people.

[brewer]

@AtlasS33 Depending on your point of view and agenda you can rationalize and justify about any position. However, you may have a difficult time getting others to agree with you.

[The Grand Nudger]

You don’t know much about our army, or it’s soldiers, lol.

We can, indeed, refuse to carry out a wide range of orders... or employ an even more subversive method. The right to miss, to fail.

When we do carry out those orders, it isn’t some absurd Christian mission or hatred....but far more immediate and practical. We come to hate the people, themselves, not their religious sensibilities. Putting a crodss on your door won’t stop a soldier from pulling it off and piling in, or from pressing the button that launches the missile, lol. That didn’t even stop -actual- crusaders. What of our Muslim soldiers? Do you also think that they’re “crusaders”?

This is just another article of your absurd Islamist fantasy world building.

[WinterHold]

Okay then, how about Omar al-Bashir's war crimes in the Darfour (and probably elsewhere)? Are you going to claim he is a Western puppet too? The Islamic Republic of Sudan has killed loads and loads of people.

Al Bashir is a warlord just like most Arab dictators, he took over the government in a coup and kept sitting on the presidency of Sudan by force until he was overthrown by the people a few months ago.
He is a warlord just like Assad, the Sauds...etc.

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@AtlasS33 Depending on your point of view and agenda you can rationalize and justify about any position. However, you may have a difficult time getting others to agree with you.

I'm not rationalizing the set of beliefs; they are rational by themselves and I'm just amplifying their reputation.

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You don’t know much about our army, or it’s soldiers, lol.  

'Merica; hell yeah ! kick ass !

We can, indeed, refuse to carry out a wide range of orders... or employ an even more subversive method.  The right to miss, to fail.

When we do carry out those orders, it isn’t some absurd Christian mission or hatred....but far more immediate and practical.  We come to hate the people, themselves, not their religious sensibilities.  Putting a crodss on your door won’t stop a soldier from pulling it off and piling in, or from pressing the button that launches the missile, lol.  That didn’t even stop -actual- crusaders.  What of our Muslim soldiers?  Do you also think that they’re “crusaders”?

This is just another article of your absurd Islamist fantasy world building.

The American army treasures "discipline", and discipline in modern war = following orders without a single word.
We can agree that if a pilot was given certain "coordinates" to bomb for example, they must carry out the order or get fired. Apply the same concept to all other weaponry.

This kind of army is built to act as a single unit, that's the key of its success. Disciplined soldiers do not flee battle easily; but they can kill a whole population if a psychopath gave them the order accompanied by the right "justification"; like "the war on terror".

To keep it short: if the leadership believes its the age of the coming of the messiah in Jerusalem; then I can expect hundreds of thousands of "well diciplined soldiers who carry orders" to pour in.

Zionism controls many politicians in the U.S -like Trump-, so that army is automatically "following orders" and automatically turned into a crusader force with some Muslims who put the orders of military generals atop of God's.